Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?

[Bill Brown]

JohnM,

I am highly suspicious of the entire bag/curtain rod story because it made no sense, apart from laying the blame squarely onto Lee. After the fact, LMR suddenly becomes "concerned" enough so that she (not her 19 yo brother who goes visiting his step-father at the hospital) goes to the Detectives at the Paines.

Mr. BALL. Did a Mrs. Randle come in the house also?
Mr. STOVALL. No. sir; she didn't. While we were loading this stuff into our car and into the sheriff's deputy's car, we were on the outside, and you know, going in and out, and she had stopped Adamcik and was talking to him and he came over and talked to me and went on back and talked to her and she said that her brother had taken Oswald to work that morning and she said that she had seen him put some kind of a package in the back seat of her brother's car. She told us it could have been a rifle is what she said. She said it was either in a brown paper box or wrapped in brown paper.

Whoops - hindsight is always 20:20 - a rifle? Yet she disclosed none of this to her brother before leaving with Lee?

Are you really comparing Randle's lack of mentioning the word "rifle" to her brother before he left for work that morning, BEFORE any shooting took place... with Randle telling law enforcement personnel (Stovall), AFTER the assassination of the President, that she saw Oswald place a package in the backseat of the car and mentioning the word "rifle"?

Really?

[Bill Brown]

The Detectives went to the Randles house with BWF and confiscated his rifle and ammunition. BWF was placed under arrest and Fritz wanted him to sign a confession as being a co-conspirator.

Have you ever heard this from anyone other than Frazier himself?

[Bill Brown]

Curtain Rods and LMR

Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw Lee get out of Wesley's car?
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.
Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it?
Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him?
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I knew that he had--Friday is the only time he had ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, I don't think he rode with him over three times, I am not sure but I never did know of him arriving, you know, except on Friday.
Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday?
Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that?
Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley--
Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you.
Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.
Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask him, he wouldn't have just told me.
Mr. BALL. You mean that night?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. After he came home?
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon.

 - a little recap -

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.


Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you-
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home.
Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that.

LMR can not keep her story straight - why on earth would LMR care about what her brother's driving arrangement was with Lee?

Note the sudden importance of curtain rods.

Mr. BALL - Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came home with you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk too much to my sister, sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at the store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say I am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about work or something like that.
Mr. BALL - This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her about the fact that Oswald had come home with you?
Mr. FRAZIER - 1 believe I did.
Mr. BALL - Did you tell her what he had told you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods.

- a little recap -

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Neither brother nor sister can get their stories straight.

In my opinion, Linnie Mae and Buell didn't discuss Oswald or curtain rods that Thursday evening.  However, they certainly did at many points in time between the assassination and testifying to the Warren Commission.  I bet they are innocently confusing one of those later points in time with that Thursday evening.

[Bill Brown]

Prior to his WC testimony Frazier did not say a word about "not paying attention". In his first day statements he actually described to Lt Day that the bag Oswald carried was "definitely a thin, flimsy sack like the one purchased in a dime store" and he told polygrapher R.D. Lewis that it was a ?crickly brown paper sack?/ A few days later he told FBI agents Odum and McNeely that "the package was wrapped in a cheap, crinkly, thin paper sack, such as that provided by Five and Ten Cent Stores?. It's all in the record!

Objection.  Buell Frazier never laid his hands on the bag and therefore could not possibly know how thick or thin the bag was.

[Bill Brown]

I think JohnM was on the angry pills!

That would be natural for someone who gets knocked on his butt time after time.....

I've never seen Walt Cakebread knock John Mytton on his butt.  Never.

[Bill Brown]

Total newbie here, but I would like to know what happened to the curtain rods. He took them to work? Were they found at the TSBD? If not, what was in the brown bag in the back seat? If it wasn't curtain rods, and presuming Frasier wasn't lying, why did he lie and say it was curtain rods? Possibly something embarrasing like a rolled up nude poster to hang at work, who knows. So was anything like curtain rods or that long skinny shape found as they retraced LHO's steps that day? If it looks, walks, quacks like a duck....it's a rifle?
Sorry if this has been asked/answered in the past.

Total newbie here, but I would like to know what happened to the curtain rods. He took them to work? Were they found at the TSBD?

No.

[Bill Brown]

Don't be shy, tell us what you REALLY think John. 

We are, after all, all newbies (again).

The approach I took, was to go to the primary published documents used by the WC and to focus on specific areas of the case.

What I found, since studying this case from 1985, was that the FBI and the WC had an agenda immediately from the get go - to vigorously discredit, discount ("mistaken") or ignore any witness that "hurt" the LNer 3 shot scenario. My main focus was the witnesses  inside the TSBD as well as the "evidence" found on the 6th floor - especially the paper bag - CE 142.

The more I dug into the documents - the worse it got. The case against LHO, as being the assassin of JFK, is and remains purely speculative. Some LNers believe that their speculation is somehow more "superior" than anyone else's. Go figure.

I do not know who the trigger man/men were - but someone obviously hated JFK so much that they killed him in front of his wife in a parade in the middle of the day on a public street.

Do you believe the 23 yo Lee Harvey Oswald harbored that much personal hatred towards JFK?

Yes - this case brings out all the "fringe elements" - like "Kitchen Sink" and "Captain Crook", etc, etc - but I believe your are being way too judgmental on those that simply want to know the MO of the FBI and the WC and how they dealt with the evidence and the witnesses.

The nuking of the former forum was a tragedy - the info dug out form all over the place over many years (by both sides) was massively informative.

What I found, since studying this case from 1985, was that the FBI and the WC had an agenda immediately from the get go - to vigorously discredit, discount ("mistaken") or ignore any witness that "hurt" the LNer 3 shot scenario.

Perhaps you should read the Warren Commission Report in full before you criticize it, otherwise your criticizing of it is entirely invalid.  The Commission investigated each rumor and allegation, regardless of the source.  Hell, they even listened to testimony given by guys like Lee Bowers and Sam Holland; there were plenty more.

Do you believe the 23 yo Lee Harvey Oswald harbored that much personal hatred towards JFK?

Not that it matters to your point, but for the record, Oswald was 24.

[Walt Cakebread]

I've never seen Walt Cakebread knock John Mytton on his butt.  Never.

You'll need to extract your head to see anything....

PS...Read my post rebutting Mytton in the thread " A weak Car Battery"