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Author Topic: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?  (Read 45253 times)

Offline Ray Mitcham

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Re: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?
« Reply #112 on: September 08, 2018, 04:52:03 PM »
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Barbara was with him the whole time that he was speaking with the agents and said he didn't tell the agents about a second person.

Mr. BELIN. DO you know whether or not he told them, the police officers, that there was any other person on the sixth floor that he saw?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He never said that there was another person on the sixth floor, in my presence, that I can remember.
Mr. BELIN. Were you present when he was with the police officers?
Mrs. ROWLAND. At times.
Mr. BELIN. On Sunday morning, November 24th?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you personally with him throughout the time that he was
with the police officers?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And he, in your presence, never said that he saw anyone on the sixth floor other than the man with the rifle?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He never said in my presence that there was another man other than the man with the rifle on the sixth floor.



Doesn't prove he didn't say it, just that she never heard him say it.

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Re: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?
« Reply #112 on: September 08, 2018, 04:52:03 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?
« Reply #113 on: September 08, 2018, 06:13:37 PM »
Doesn't prove he didn't say it, just that she never heard him say it.

Going by that CT fuzzy logic, no one else saw what Rowland said he saw, so it doesn't mean he saw it. Especially given his propensity for slinging the bull.

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?
« Reply #114 on: September 09, 2018, 12:13:10 AM »
Rowland merely confirms the essential features ie. what the commission already knew. That minutes or so before the shots there were 2 men on the 6th floor. A white man with a gun and a black man. About 15 minutes before the shots they were at opposite ends of the building. What the evidence shows it that Rowland observed Williams in the SN as his lunch was initially discovered there. What has never been explained is why Jarman and Norman repeatedly misrepresented how Williams got to the 5th floor prior to testifying before the WC.

Why is this so uncomfortable for the LN camp?

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Re: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?
« Reply #114 on: September 09, 2018, 12:13:10 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?
« Reply #115 on: September 09, 2018, 02:57:25 AM »
Why would someone, whom Arnold surmised was part of the security detail, be firing at JFK? Arnold only saw the armed male once for 15 seconds in the SW corner of the 6th floor. He did not know where the gunman had gone nor did he see him again. Arnold and Barbara were looking at the parade not the TSBD. There actions post shots explain why they didn't look at the TSBD:

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, did you have any idea where the shots came from or the sound?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the people generally ran towards the railroad tracks behind the School Book Depository Building, and so I naturally assumed they came from there, because that is where all the policemen and everyone was going, and I couldn't tell where the sounds came from.
Mr. BELIN. So you just started over after them?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did your husband go with you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I grabbed his hand and he couldn't go anyplace else.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of origin when you heard the first noise?
Mr. ROWLAND. Well, I began looking, I didn't look at the building mainly, and as practically any of the police officers that were there then will tell you, the echo effect was such that it sounded like it came from the railroad yards. That is where I looked, that is where all the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads.

Mr. SPECTER. After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of the railroad yards myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a rifle up there earlier in the day?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "C," and that all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, and I just didn't pay any attention to it at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. How many officers were converging on that area, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate?
Mr. ROWLAND. I think it would be a very good estimation of 50, maybe more.

Why would Arnold be looking at the TSBD when both he and his wife thought the shots came from the rail yards and both saw the Police converging there?

Mr. SPECTER. When, if at all, did you first report what you had observed in the Texas School Book Depository Building about the man with the rifle to anyone in an official position?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was approximately 15 minutes after the third report that I went to an officer, he was a plainclothesman who was there combing the area, close to position "C," looking for footprints and such as this, some lady said someone jumped off one of the colonnades and started running, there was an officer looking in this area for footprints and such as this.

Arnold mentioned about the African-American because he found out where the shots had come from.

Mr. SPECTER. Shortly after the assassination and before these interviews that you described were completed, Mr. Rowland, had you learned or heard that the shots were supposed to have come out of the window which we have marked with the "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. I did not know that, in fact until Saturday when I read the paper.
Mr. SPECTER. Which Saturday is that?
Mr. ROWLAND. The following Saturday.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that be the second day, the day after the assassination?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, knowing that, at that time, did you attach any particular significance to the presence of the Negro gentleman, whom you have described, that you saw in window "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is why I brought it to the attention of the FBI agents who interviewed me that day. This was as an afterthought because I did not think of it firsthand. But I did bring it to their attention before they left, and they??
Mr. SPECTER. That was at the interview on the Saturday morning November 23?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you think it of sufficient significance to bring it to the attention of any of the other interviewing FBI agents on the balance of the interviews you have described?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did on the following Sunday to the agents who interviewed me where I worked.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time you made the Saturday statement, which you say was transcribed and appears as Exhibit 358, did you at that time tell the interviewing FBI agents about the colored gentleman who you testified was in the window which you marked with an "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ask them at that time to include the information in the statement which they took from you?
Mr. ROWLAND. No. I think I told them about it after the statement, as an afterthought, an afterthought came up, it came into my mind. I also told the agents that took a statement from me on Sunday. They didn't seem very interested, so I just forgot about it for a while.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that information included in the written portion of the statement which was taken from you on Sunday?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, it wasn't. It shouldn't but the agent deleted it though himself, I mean I included it in what I gave.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say deleted it, did he strike it out after putting it in, or did he omit it in the transcription?
Mr. ROWLAND. Omitted it.
Senator COOPER. I think you said a while ago that when you told the FBI agents on Saturday that you had seen this Negro man in the window, that they indicated to you that they weren't interested in it at all. What did they say which gave you that impression?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember exactly what was said. The context was again the agents were trying to find out if I could positively identify the man that I saw. They were concerned mainly with this, and I brought up to them about the Negro man after I had signed the statement, and at that time he just told me that they were just trying to find out about or if anyone could identify the man who was up there. They just didn't seem interested at all. They didn't pursue the point. They didn't take it down in the notation as such.
Mr. SPECTER. It was more of the fact that they didn't pursue it, didn't include it?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Or that they said something which led you to believe they were not interested?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was just the fact they didn't pursue it. I mean, I just mentioned that I saw him in that window. They didn't ask me, you know, if was this at the same time or such. They just didn't seem very interested in that at all.
Mr. WRIGHT. By man who was up there you mean man with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. They were interested in the man with the rifle, and finding out if anyone could identify him. The other man was the colored man in the other window.
Except, Rowland did not know the president had been shot. Rowland had no idea where the shots were coming from or who they were directed towards. Arnold stated the man in the SW corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD was specifically there to protect the president. Rowland was not aware of who was shooting at who. He did not even briefly scan the window or the building to see if the place where he stated a man was positioned with a rifle, specifically placed there to guard the president, was firing the rifle to protect the president. This very thought obviously crossed the minds of the panel and the attorneys. They asked him three times and each time he gave a different answer. Yes, No , and maybe he looked at the window

Rowland's answer to Specter confirms he never seen a gunman to begin with or he would have known why he never looked.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, did you have any idea where the shots came from or the sound?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the people generally ran towards the railroad tracks behind the School Book Depository Building, and so I naturally assumed they came from there, because that is where all the policemen and everyone was going, and I couldn't tell where the sounds came from.

Mr. SPECTER. After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of the railroad yards myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a rifle up there earlier in the day?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "C," and that all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, and I just didn't pay any attention to it at that time.

The whole idea that he would not look if he really had seen a man with a gun calls into question his whole story .

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?
« Reply #116 on: September 09, 2018, 02:59:49 AM »
Arnold had mentioned about the African-American male after the interviews were finished as a passing comment to the Agents. You dont know if Barbara was standing next to Arnold when he made the comments.

The agents were there specifically to determine if Arnold could ID the gunman. He was interviewed seven times.
She said she was with him the whole time he was talking with the agents.

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Re: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?
« Reply #116 on: September 09, 2018, 02:59:49 AM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?
« Reply #117 on: September 09, 2018, 08:46:06 AM »
How about someone on the anti-Rowland bandwagon post a believeable narrative in the context of what he knew at the time and what we know now. Like......how did he know Williams was on the 6th floor at that time?
Was he just guessing and got lucky? What do you think Rowland?s motivation was?

As stated previously he essentially got the basics correct. Still waiting for a LN response to the repeated lies by Jarman and Norman prior to their testifying regarding Williams movements.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?
« Reply #118 on: September 09, 2018, 03:56:00 PM »
So because Arnold didn't "react" in the "expected" manner post shots - according to your criteria of not looking at the TSBD - you are now calling into question that he even saw a gunman at the SW corner.

Why then didnt the WC simply reject his testimony outright?

Why do you believe it was necessary to look at the TSBD if both him and Barbara thought the shots came from the rail yard?

Mr. BELIN. Did you particularly watch the sixth floor because of the fact that you had seen or your husband had seen a person on the sixth floor?
Mrs. BOWLAND. We looked at it for a few minutes, but we didn't look back, and when we heard the shots, we didn't look back up there. I grabbed his hand and started running toward the car.

Arnold saw the gunman once for 15 seconds at 12.15 pm.

Rowland could not even give the same answer twice to the question "did he look back at the window?" You are saying you would not have looked back to where you had seen a man with a rifle to determine the location of the gunshots.

Rowland could not give the same description of the person twice. He states a man bent over leaning out the window is tall and slender. If it is to be believed then time altered his memory and it is a description of Jarman, Norman, and BRW when they were leaning out of the window while on the fifth floor not the sixth floor.

The question of whether he actually had seen a gunman in the SW corner was called into question by Specter when his description of the gunman in the window didn't make sense.

Rowland's whole testimony was contradicted by his own statement.

Roger Craig placing the second person in the SW and that person being white tells you that never happened. Craig would have known the importance of the SW vs SE corner.

If you are going to make a case for a conspiracy you need someone besides Rowland. It would be easier to believe the Cuban Military Band was there than what Rowland stated.

You are a thinking man do you really believe a testimony that is so contradicted by himself and others?

The WC did not reject any ones testimony. They just recorded it.

Barbara never seen the gunman, Arnold claimed he did, and he could have glanced up there but did not.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?
« Reply #119 on: September 09, 2018, 06:20:38 PM »
Except, Rowland did not know the president had been shot. Rowland had no idea where the shots were coming from or who they were directed towards. Arnold stated the man in the SW corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD was specifically there to protect the president. Rowland was not aware of who was shooting at who. He did not even briefly scan the window or the building to see if the place where he stated a man was positioned with a rifle, specifically placed there to guard the president, was firing the rifle to protect the president. This very thought obviously crossed the minds of the panel and the attorneys. They asked him three times and each time he gave a different answer. Yes, No , and maybe he looked at the window

Rowland's answer to Specter confirms he never seen a gunman to begin with or he would have known why he never looked.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, did you have any idea where the shots came from or the sound?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the people generally ran towards the railroad tracks behind the School Book Depository Building, and so I naturally assumed they came from there, because that is where all the policemen and everyone was going, and I couldn't tell where the sounds came from.

Mr. SPECTER. After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of the railroad yards myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a rifle up there earlier in the day?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "C," and that all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, and I just didn't pay any attention to it at that time.

The whole idea that he would not look if he really had seen a man with a gun calls into question his whole story .

'It was mostly due to the confusion'

Sounds reasonable to me.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 06:40:41 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: Why didn't the Conspirators plant Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza?
« Reply #119 on: September 09, 2018, 06:20:38 PM »