If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?

[Andrew Mason]

Jerry, I thought you were kidding about Andrew theorizing that both JFK and Connally were hit by the first shot and that JFK's only reaction was to stop smiling and waving, and that JBC wasn't even aware he was hit. 

YIKES.

Jerry editorializes.

 To be clear, I am not saying that JBC was hit in the back on the first shot. I am saying he was not.
I am not suggesting he did not feel the back wound. John Mcloy suggested that. JBC said he felt he immediately and there is no reason to think he was mistaken.

 Nor did I ever suggest that JFK's sole reaction to being hit on the first shot was to stop smiling and waving. I have simply pointed out that there is an awful lot of evidence that JFK reacted to the first shot immediately. According to that evidence, which I set out for you to read, he reacted by moving to the left, clutching at his chest and neck and assuming a blank facial expression.

[Howard Gee]

Jerry editorializes.

 To be clear, I am not saying that JBC was hit in the back on the first shot. I am saying he was not.
I am not suggesting he did not feel the back wound. John Mcloy suggested that. JBC said he felt he immediately and there is no reason to think he was mistaken.

 Nor did I ever suggest that JFK's sole reaction to being hit on the first shot was to stop smiling and waving. I have simply pointed out that there is an awful lot of evidence that JFK reacted to the first shot immediately. According to that evidence, which I set out for you to read, he reacted by moving to the left, clutching at his chest and neck and assuming a blank facial expression.

You're spinning like a top.

JFK clutched at his chest and neck before disappearing behind the sign in Zapruder ? 

I know you're not claiming that JBC was hit in the back by the first shot, you're just claiming he was shot in the thigh and didn't feel it.   

[Allan Fritzke]

Mrs Kennedy wasn't always sitting right next to her husband - her initial focus was to her left hand side on the extreme opposite side of the seat looking away from him.



She also had two Police motorcycles close to her ears on her left hand side.



These photos are very close to when the first shot was fired -  a shot heard by SSA Kellerman.

Mrs Kennedy was sufficiently distracted that she understandably failed to hear her husband utter the words.

She also didn't remember climbing over the back of the Limo - again completely understandable.

You know of anyone else in Dealey Plaza who spoke with a Boston accent in ear shot to SSA Kellerman?

Tony, Could you elaborate on the position of the camera man for the first picture.  The shot certainly  could not have been shot that early.  He has his right arm at rest and then he raised it at about Z190 to wave to the crowd.  There is no distress.  The distress begins when he moves his left arm up towards his neck.  That is the first visible evidence of the neck shot in my opinion. The second photograph shown is a blowup of the Willis photo.   There is a question of its validity when you compare it to a comparable Zapruder Frame Z221 for example? Is there not a major discrepancy?    Is it a fake photo? Is Willis the very tall photographer standing in front of the running girl at Z162 who took this first photo or the second? 
Clearly in the Zapruder Film you can see the umbrella man in front of the Stemmons Freeway sign with  the "Cuban" standing on his RHS.   From Zapruder's angle, the umbrella man remains in the front of the sign - the umbrella being obscured by it and definitely to the front.  We don't see the Cuban at all in the Willis photograph and the umbrella man is shown to be back from the Stemmons Freeway sign - clearly not possible.    Throughout all the Zapruder Film which shows the umbrella, it appears relatively stationary with respect to the road sign and remains always at the front of it.

[John Mytton]

JohnM,

three questions: ....

This is why you are a waste of time Fratini. I present evidence that absolutely satisfies the testimony of a trained SS agent and since you can't refute any of what was presented your opening line is to split the split hair into 3 new pieces and from there it just never ends.

Let's review,

Clip 1. Kellerman says when he passes near the sign that he hears a pop, then hears a voice ,then he turns around and sees that the President needs to go to the hospital. This clip shows that Kellerman did not turn around while passing behind the sign.



Clip 2. shows both Connally and Kennedy reacting to Kellerman's pop, Kellerman says he hears a voice and turns around, just as Zapruder shows. And in addition nobody at the crime scene has ever said they can hear or see Kennedy mouthing any words and nobody has said that they can see Kennedy's mouth moving in Zapruder either. It all over red rover.



Btw if Kellerman was absolutely definitively sure that it was the President's voice then he wouldn't need to qualify his voice recognition with "I firmly believe", we all firmly believe a lot of things but that doesn't make any of it true.
And considering that no one who was closer to Kennedy said they heard Kennedy say anything and this when compounded with the above irrefutable evidence means this one really needs to be put to bed.

JohnM

[Howard Gee]

The first shot was before the limo had passed the sign.

That's right. 

So where do we see JFK mouthing 'My god, I am hit' or reacting to a bullet striking him before passing the sign ?

We know he couldn't say anything after passing the sign, so when did he say it ?

Why don't we see JFK reacting to a bullet that entered his back before he's obscured behind the sign ?

Did all of this happen while he was behind the sign ?

And even if you think JFK reacted to being hit and said 'My god, I'm hit' while he was behind the sign.....consider the following....

If the first shot hit JFK in the back and caused him to say 'I'm hit' and didn't exit anywhere, then you're saying the shot that hits him as he emerges from behind the sign must be an entrance wound to the throat. Yet there is no exit wound for the proposed frontal entry throat shot and no bullet found in JFK's neck.

As John Mytton told you, 'it's all over red rover'. Reposting Kellerman's testimony over and over won't change that.

SINGLE BULLET FACT

[Howard Gee]

An entrance wound to JFK's upper back circa Z202, or even just before, changes the shooting dynamics completely.

On being hit, and then realizing that he was actually hit (a delayed reaction) means we do not know precisely when JFK uttered the phrase that SSA Kellerman heard from the back seat. I believe that Willis was more than capable of determining that what he heard was a rifle shot. The first shot occurred after Croft #18 and after Betzner #3.

A non-penetrating back wound means you can forget about any shot coming from the front and hitting JFK in the throat or that there was a bullet in his throat. The bullet didn't penetrate the lungs but caused trauma on the RHS tip of his lung. I do not know why the bullet didn't penetrate JFK completely - it may have been undercharged or it hit something first. At Z202, there was a live oak tree in the way for a clear shot if you are going for a shot from the SE corner of the TSBD.

But that's not where the cluster #### happens - it is the SECOND shot. The second shot must of occurred at a minimum 2.25 seconds later (cycling time of CE 139) some 41 frames later (taking into account Zapruder's camera frame rate) - making it circa Z243.

That was WAY past JC's reaction to being hit. It meant you had another shooter firing at least one bullet at the motorcade. All JFK had to be was  an inch further down on his RHS = plenty of clearance to have a bullet go past him and hit JC.

The third bullet hits JFK in the head at Z312/313.

No SBT but another shooter. You think Arlen wasnt concerned about that? Hence 1) the first shot missed everything and was "lost" and 2) an SBT was a necessity for the lone gunman hypothesis.

So JFK was reacting to being hit circa Z202 and JC was reacting to being hit by a separate bullet just after emerging from behind the sign.

By the time SSA Kellerman turns around JFK had already been hit and likely JC as well. SSA Kellerman didn't see the head shot.

The WC knew that if the SBT occurred as early as Z202, how did one explain JC's reaction taking so long?

JC said he wasnt hit by the first bullet - he was correct.

You can forget about any shot hitting JFK to his throat from the front. I do not know what caused the small neat round hole. But it wasnt CE 399 going through his neck.

Willis heard THREE shots. Are you going to call into question his ability to do so?

SINGLE BULLET FICTION

So now you have JFK being struck at 202 in the back by a bullet that doesn't exit.

And he doesn't react until when ??

When does he say 'My god, I'm hit' ?

You also state "A non-penetrating back wound means you can forget about any shot coming from the front and hitting JFK in the throat or that there was a bullet in his throat."

This is completely WRONG and demonstrates just how LOST you are.

If the bullet that struck JFK in the back didn't penetrate and exit from his throat, then what the hell caused the throat wound if not a frontal entry ??

Or are you now trying to say JFK was struck in the back by two separate bullets, one of which lodged in his back and the other exited from his throat ?

Take up a new hobby. You suck at this.

SINGLE BULLET FACT

[Howard Gee]

Still LMAO @
"A non-penetrating back wound means you can forget about any shot coming from the front and hitting JFK in the throat or that there was a bullet in his throat."

Just the opposite is true, Tony.

A non-penetrating back wound makes a frontal entry throat wound mandatory !

I'm going to send out a search party for you, Fratini.  You are seriously lost.

SINGLE BULLET FACT

[Andrew Mason]

You're spinning like a top.

JFK clutched at his chest and neck before disappearing behind the sign in Zapruder ? 

If you are interested in discussing this in an adult way, you can dispense with the emojis and try arguing based on the evidence.

I am not sure whether JFK had started reacting before disappearing behind the sign, although the HSCA photographic panel concluded that he had (1 HSCA 46):

"By Zapruder frame 207, when President Kennedy is seen going behind a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view, he appears to be reacting to a severe external stimulus. This reaction is first indicated in the vicinity of frame 200 of the Zapruder film. The President's right hand freezes in the midst of a waving motion, followed by a rapid leftward movement of his head. (43) There is, therefore, photographic evidence of a shot striking the President by this time."

Perhaps you may wish to explain, by referring to the evidence, why such a conclusion merits a chuckle emoji...

I know you're not claiming that JBC was hit in the back by the first shot, you're just claiming he was shot in the thigh and didn't feel it.   

It is not uncommon for soldiers to receive extremity wounds and not realize it for much longer than 4 seconds.  A bullet acts so quickly that nerves are destroyed before they can send any signal.  If the wound does not interfere with function and causes no pain, why do you think he would feel it?  Connally said he never felt the thigh wound and he certainly received it.

The first bullet striking JFK and causing JBC's thigh wound is, arguably, a much better fit with the evidence than CE399 doing all the damage to his wrist and deflecting around the point of contact on the back of the radius to make a left turn to the thigh and end up as it did.  Not to mention the problem that Greer said he heard a concussion from the second shot and Tague said he was hit on the second shot. Oh, and I won't bother to mention the 40+ witnesses who said the second shot was well after the midpoint between 1 and 3....