Ruthie Paine's Confusing Calendar

[Jerry Freeman]

So the Klein's order was most certainly RECEIVED by Klein's on March 13, just as the stamped date indicates on  Waldman #7

That looks like a stamp that could have been embossed at any time.
 

I'm ASSUMING the Seaport order was also mailed on March 12, due to the "March 13" invoice date on the Seaport internal form.

I'm assuming that could have been fudged.

It looks like a 3 pressed over some other date and.. why the 1 wk? Oh!---- processed in one week?   Bullcrap.
The chances of the order sent- order filled- and order shipped timing is beyond belief.
All of this just smells spells cover-up. A 1963 one day mail service to different cities [snicker]

Why would the Seaport order form be dated 2 months earlier than the proposed... mailed off at the same time as the Klein's order? There's never been a believable answer to that one. Logically a different coupon would have been more neatly filled out.

[Martin Weidmann]

But, Martin, don't forget the fact that Marina—within hours of President Kennedy's assassination on 11/22/63—directed the police straight to Ruth Paine's garage and straight to that blanket on the floor. And when she did that on November 22nd she was directing the police to the place in Ruth's house where Marina was certain that her husband stored a rifle.

And regardless of what rifle it was—the C2766 Mannlicher-Carcano or another rifle altogether—Marina obviously thought that A RIFLE of some kind was wrapped up in that blanket in Ruth Paine's garage. Wouldn't you agree with that last statement?

If that is what really happened, yes I would agree with that statement that Marina did indeed think there still was a rifle in that blanket and that it was Oswald's. Having said that, what Marina thought isn't really evidence. Only last week my wife believed that I had taken money out of her bag, when in fact - as it turned out - she had left it in the car. 

Whenever it comes to Marina there are IMO a couple of things to consider. First of all, after the assassination she was a young woman in a foreign country with two little children, no relatives, no real friends and a dead husband who was accused of a double murder. That alone would have been a motive for self preservation. Secondly, we have to consider the fact that in all the interviews she gave to various law enforcement agents, prior to her testimony, she lied multiple times. She actually admitted that she did, so there can't be any discussion about that. Thirdly, and this for me is crucial in understanding Marina, is the fact that at some point, prior to her testimony, an immigration officer was flown in to attend an interview with her who basically told her that if she would cooperate she would be allowed to stay in the country. This alone makes her testimony completely unreliable. In an honest investigation Marina's word would have counted for nothing without some sort of corroboration.

Or do you really think that Marina concocted her "There's A Rifle In The Garage" story right on the spot on the day of the assassination itself when she led the cops straight to the blanket on 11/22? And thusly, via such a concoction, she was in essence attempting to point an accusing finger of guilt directly at Lee Oswald for the murder of the President. Or at least it would certainly appear that way at the time she did it on Nov. 22. Would you not agree?

I agree. I am actually convinced that Marina, in those early days, was convinced that Oswald did the shooting. The mere fact that she destroyed another BY photo tells us that she tought Lee was guilty and yet as a good wife she wanted to help him by destroying evidence. But if what a wife or husband thinks, at some point in time, is actual evidence of guilt of their partner, there would be an overpopulation in the prisons. People thinking can be and frequently is a recipe for disaster.

Now, just ask yourself: Why on Earth would Marina have wanted to invent such a lie about a rifle being stored in Ruth Paine's garage just hours after Marina herself knew that the President had just been shot and killed from the very same place where her husband was employed?

The notion that Marina Oswald would have ever conceived of inventing such a false story about the rifle on the very day of the assassination is just too far-fetched to be believed.

I don't think Marina wanted to invent anything. I think she was a young, very insecure, woman who was overwhelmed by the events and who didn't know what to do and where to turn. Some of what she said was probably true and some of it was just something she believed at the time. The value that is now being attached to Marina's testimony is IMO overrated.

I do, however, agree with this comment you made above:

"It seems far more logical to me that he [Lee Oswald] would have disposed of the rifle after shooting at General Walker (if that's what he did) and before his trip to New Orleans."

I have myself often wondered why Oswald did not get rid of the C2766 Carcano rifle after he tried to kill General Walker with it on April 10, 1963. Here are two times in the past I wrote about that mystery—in 2009 and 2016:

"Oswald could be pretty brazen at times. For example—holding on to the rifle with which he shot at General Walker. Oswald, incredibly, apparently actually felt no need or desire to get rid of the weapon with which he took that potshot at Walker.

For more than SEVEN MONTHS he held onto it, even though he almost certainly had to know that the bullet that he fired into Walker's house WAS recovered and could conceivably (for all Oswald knew) be linked to Carcano Rifle #C2766.

I've often wondered why in the world Oswald didn't toss Rifle C2766 in the trash after he shot at Walker on April 10, 1963 (or dispose of it in some other fashion). He ran a fearful risk by keeping that rifle in his possession for all those months.

Perhaps it was a sign of Oswald's miserly and penny-pinching ways. Maybe he just hated the idea of spending $21.45 for a weapon he would only be using once.

I also wonder this --- Would Oswald have disposed of his rifle if he had succeeded in killing General Edwin A. Walker in April 1963?

And I also sometimes wonder this --- If Oswald HAD trashed his Carcano rifle after the Walker shooting, would he have purchased another rifle at some point in time to use in another assassination attempt?

It's possible, of course, that even if Oswald had disposed of the C2766 Carcano, he could have still purchased another gun to use on President Kennedy. Oswald had enough time to get himself another gun between the time he could have learned for certain that JFK would be passing by the front door of the Depository and November 22 itself.

Which begs the follow-up question (which has been asked by many people too) --- Since Oswald had more than $170 and since he had at least 2 to 3 days to get himself another gun...why did LHO decide to use his traceable mail-order Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to shoot the President?

Food for thought anyway.

Indeed. No matter from which perspective you look at this, it simply doesn't make sense.

In summary:

We can never know the answers to all these questions relating to Lee Harvey Oswald, his rifle, and the thoughts that might have been floating around in his warped brain. But the one thing that we do know beyond all REASONABLE DOUBT is this --- Lee Oswald took Mannlicher-Carcano rifle #C2766 to work with him on 11/22/63 and fired three shots from that weapon at President Kennedy from the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building."[/i] -- DVP; June 28, 2009

But the one thing that we do know beyond all REASONABLE DOUBT is this --- Lee Oswald took Mannlicher-Carcano rifle #C2766 to work with him on 11/22/63 and fired three shots from that weapon at President Kennedy from the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building.

How exactly do we know this beyond a reasonable doubt?

----------------------------

"Lee Oswald purchases a cheap rifle for himself in March 1963 (so he can shoot a certain retired general in Dallas). He misses in his attempt to kill General Walker, but decides to hang on to the Carcano rifle (for some reason that I've never quite been able to figure out, other than his own extreme stinginess and unwillingness to get rid of something he only used once)." -- DVP; March 6, 2016

This is just editorializing

[Jerry Freeman]

... don't forget the fact that Marina—within hours of President Kennedy's assassination on 11/22/63—directed the police straight to Ruth Paine's garage and straight to that blanket on the floor. And when she did that on November 22nd she was directing the police to the place in Ruth's house where Marina was certain that her husband stored a rifle.

You obviously very much believe this. Vincent Bugliosi has brainwashed you. You fail to see the fallacy and the logic of events. Mr Von Pein....you have done well compiling the assassination information...However you don't see the aberration of the presented story.
Please be mindful that there was a matter of time between the shooting and the testimony of these women.
But still, Mrs Paine was steadfast---- Read carefully and don't immediately jump to your conclusion .....

Mr. JENNER - Was there a rifle packed in the back of the car?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - You didn't see any kind of weapon?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise?
Mr. JENNER - Were the materials and things in your station wagon unpacked and placed in your home?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; immediately.
Mr. JENNER - Did you see that being done, were you present?
Mrs. PAINE - I helped do it; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you see any weapon on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Whether a rifle, pistol or--

                           Jenner was an ass to be sure

Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Or any covering, any package, that looked as though it might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm?
Mrs. PAINE - No.

             In a courtroom this would have been asked and answered!
 Mr Boggs [Commissioner] asked Ms Paine a few things....

Representative BOGGS - When did she return to your home?
Mrs. PAINE - She came with me from New Orleans, leaving there the 23d of September and arriving in Irving the 24th of September.
Representative BOGGS - And she lived with you in Irving from the 24th of September until the 23d?
Mrs. PAINE - The morning of the 23d.
Representative BOGGS - Of November?
Mrs. PAINE - She left the morning of the 23d, she left expecting to come back.
Representative BOGGS - During that period of time did Lee Oswald live there?
Mrs. PAINE - No. 
Representative BOGGS - Did you see the rifle that he had in the room in your home?
Mrs. PAINE - In the garage, no.
Representative BOGGS - In the garage, you never saw one?

her husband stored a rifle.

How could Oswald have stored the said rifle in the garage when he wasn't even there until he showed up a some two weeks after Ruth and Marina arrived back from New Orleans?
At that he had to hitchhike from the Dallas YMCA [obviously rifleless] because the ladies had refused go jump and run and pick him up.
News of the president was heard at the Paines----

Mr. JENNER - Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?
Mrs. PAINE - No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.
Mr. McCLOY - May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you were Sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa. While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?
Mrs. PAINE - It had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given.
Mr. McCLOY - So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was involved?
Mrs. PAINE - No; not until the time the officers came to the door. 
Mr. JENNER - The police arrived and what occurred.
Mrs. PAINE - I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least one package or two. I was very surprised.
Mr. JENNER - Did you say anything?
Mrs. PAINE - I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea that Lee might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't. They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests.
They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds. Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the garage.
Mr. JENNER - How many police officers were there?
Mrs. PAINE - There were six altogether, and they were busy in various parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it--had looked into--she indicated the blanket roll on the floor.
Mr. JENNER - Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time?
Mrs. PAINE - She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the blanket roll.

This might have been a story line from Days of our Lives.
Ms Paine allowed six cops to stomp all over her house but didn't ask for a warrant or even ask them why?
Ruth was already standing on this supposed blanket and expresses not----- Marina what is this... Lee had a rifle and you knew it was here and you didn't tell me?
Marina didn't secretly stick a rifle under a blanket and she didn't ever say that she did....so how did it get there?

Mr. RANKIN. So he might have been in the garage sometime between 9 and 10? Was that what you thought?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I think that he might have even been there in the morning and turned on the light.
Mr. RANKIN. On this evening when you were angry with him, had he come home with the young Mr. Frazier that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you had noticed the rifle before that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said that I saw--for the first and last time I saw the rifle about a week after I had come to Mrs. Paine. But, as I said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and I was sure when the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it was all rolled together. And, therefore, when they took the blanket and the rifle was not in it, I was very much surprised.

                      Face facts... there never was any rifle at the Paines.                                                         

[David Von Pein]

Face facts... there never was any rifle at the Paines.                                                         

Then what was in that large-ish package that Lee Oswald took inside the Book Depository Building on the morning of November 22nd? (And you're surely not going to respond with, Curtain rods, what else?, are you?)

Quick Summary:

....Lee Harvey Oswald orders a rifle through the mail in March '63.

....On March 20, Klein's ships Carcano Rifle No. C2766 to Oswald's known Dallas mailing address (P.O. Box 2915 at the Dallas post office).

....While talking to Buell Wesley Frazier on the morning of 11/21/63, Oswald makes up a story about wanting to get some curtain rods at Ruth Paine's house in Irving that evening.

....Oswald, who spent the night at Ruth Paine's house on the night of 11/21, is seen by Frazier taking a long-ish package into the TSBD on the morning of 11/22.

....Carcano Rifle No. C2766 is found on the sixth floor of the TSBD 52 minutes after President Kennedy was assassinated (via rifle fire) from that very same sixth floor.

....An empty long-ish brown paper bag is also found on the 6th floor---very near the window where someone had just shot at the President. Two of Oswald's prints turn up on that bag.

Even without a calculator, it's not exactly a tough chore to add up these pieces of information in order to arrive at the logical answer. But if you're a conspiracy believer, it would seem as if the evidence connected with the JFK murder case is about as useful as a lawn mower in the Sahara.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#Guns-Backyard-Photos-And-Other-Evidence

[John Iacoletti]

You said there was "not one iota" of evidence but now backtracking?

One of us is a damned liar.....  Here's what I wrote....

There's simply not one iota of solid physical evidence that the rifle was in that blanket in the Paine's garage.   

So “Richard” can’t read any better than he can think.

[John Iacoletti]

And regardless of what rifle it was—the C2766 Mannlicher-Carcano or another rifle altogether—Marina obviously thought that A RIFLE of some kind was wrapped up in that blanket in Ruth Paine's garage. Wouldn't you agree with that last statement?

I’m sure she did think that. That doesn’t mean that she was correct.

The notion that Marina Oswald would have ever conceived of inventing such a false story about the rifle on the very day of the assassination is just too far-fetched to be believed.

Who said that Marina invented a false story?

[Jerry Freeman]

Then what was in that large-ish package that Lee Oswald took inside the Book Depository Building on the morning of November 22nd? 

Did you see it?

[John Iacoletti]

Then what was in that large-ish package that Lee Oswald took inside the Book Depository Building on the morning of November 22nd?

I don’t know and neither do you. But the preponderance of the evidence suggests that it was not the C2766 rifle. And you don’t actually know that he took it inside the building either.

Quick Summary:

....Lee Harvey Oswald orders a rifle through the mail in March '63.

....On March 20, Klein's ships Carcano Rifle No. C2766 to Oswald's known Dallas mailing address (P.O. Box 2915 at the Dallas post office).

....While talking to Buell Wesley Frazier on the morning of 11/21/63, Oswald makes up a story about wanting to get some curtain rods at Ruth Paine's house in Irving that evening.

....Oswald, who spent the night at Ruth Paine's house on the night of 11/21, is seen by Frazier taking a long-ish package into the TSBD on the morning of 11/22.

....Carcano Rifle No. C2766 is found on the sixth floor of the TSBD 52 minutes after President Kennedy was assassinated (via rifle fire) from that very same sixth floor.

....An empty long-ish brown paper bag is also found on the 6th floor---very near the window where someone had just shot at the President. Two of Oswald's prints turn up on that bag.

I see you’re confusing your assumptions with facts again.  You don’t know that Klein’s shipped this rifle anywhere. You don’t know that Oswald “made up a story” about curtain rods. You don’t know that Kennedy was assassinated from the sixth floor or from that window. You don’t know where the CE142 bag was found or that it was the same package Frazier saw.