Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: In 54 years has it ever been proven that CE399 is the bullet found at Parkland?  (Read 32250 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
Advertisement
At trial, CE-399 would most likely be determined to be admissible.  Most evidence, if the only issue with it is a questionable chain of custody, is indeed admissible.  It is then left up to the jury to decide how much weight to give a certain piece of evidence with a questionable chain of custody.

The trial judge would admit the bullet.  A questionable chain of custody of CE-399 may affect how much weight the jury gives the bullet but a questionable chain, on its own, does not affect it's admissibility.

The single bullet that passed through both Kennedy and Connally and ended up in Connally's thigh must, at some point, be found somewhere.  Even if this bullet was NOT CE-399, it is a must that this bullet would be found by someone somewhere.  No other bullet has ever been found (in Connally's thigh or elsewhere).  Even if you do not believe in the single bullet theory, the fact remains that a bullet lodged itself in Connally's left thigh.

To any conspiracy advocate, especially the original poster of this thread, have you ever seen any evidence put forth which suggests that a bullet, other than CE-399, was found inside Connally's thigh or anywhere else related to the known movements of the bodies of both Kennedy and Connally?

On the night of the assassination and overnight into Saturday morning, the limousine was searched by the FBI.  They were looking for evidence.  Smaller fragments were found but no intact bullet, like 399, was found.  No other bullet has ever been turned in and placed into the record and this circumstantial evidence alone gets 399 admitted into evidence.

It's up to the jury to decide, based on a questionable chain of custody, how much weight to give CE-399 as the bullet found at Parkland.

Also, it is up to the defense, since CE-399 was linked to Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world, to convince the jury that CE-399 was NOT the bullet found at the hospital.  Has anyone in this forum (or anywhere else) done so?

For once I'll make the exception of responding for the purpose of advancing the discussion.

At trial, CE-399 would most likely be determined to be admissible.  Most evidence, if the only issue with it is a questionable chain of custody, is indeed admissible.  It is then left up to the jury to decide how much weight to give a certain piece of evidence with a questionable chain of custody.

The trial judge would admit the bullet.  A questionable chain of custody of CE-399 may affect how much weight the jury gives the bullet but a questionable chain, on its own, does not affect it's admissibility.


It is pointless to speculate about the admissibility of evidence at trial as there will never be a trial. It's an understandable go-to position exactly because of the massive problems with the chain of custody as assuming CE399 would be admissible gets you passed the problem of having to explain and/or discuss the problems with the chain of custody.

The single bullet that passed through both Kennedy and Connally and ended up in Connally's thigh must, at some point, be found somewhere.  Even if this bullet was NOT CE-399, it is a must that this bullet would be found by someone somewhere.  No other bullet has ever been found (in Connally's thigh or elsewhere).  Even if you do not believe in the single bullet theory, the fact remains that a bullet lodged itself in Connally's left thigh.

Apart from the flawed assumption that there ever was such a thing as a single bullet, the argument that a bullet would have to be found by someone somewhere doesn't hold water for several reasons;

1. There was a shot that missed. That bullet was never found proving that there is no certainty that a bullet would ever be found.
2. Allegedly bullet fragments were found in the limo. There is no reason to assume that these could not have come from a bullet that hit Kennedy or Connally or both.
3. If the bullet now in evidence as CE399 is in fact not the bullet found by Tomlinson at Parkland, it means there was evidence tampering involved. In such a case it would just as easy to make a bullet disappear as it is to make one appear.

To any conspiracy advocate, especially the original poster of this thread, have you ever seen any evidence put forth which suggests that a bullet, other than CE-399, was found inside Connally's thigh or anywhere else related to the known movements of the bodies of both Kennedy and Connally?

First of all, I'm not so sure that the movements of the bodies are known to any degree of certainty. There seems to be a lot of discussion about that. Secondly, the question is a loaded one as it assumes that the bullet that went through Connally was found. Thirdly, it implicitly suggests that the bullet that Tomlinson found was indeed (1) the bullet that went throught Connally and (2) is indeed the bullet now in evidence as CE399.

A far better question would be if I have ever seen evidence that the bullet found by Tomlinson was not the one that's now in evidence as CE399 and my answer would be; yes! There are indicators all over the place about how something is extremely wrong the the CE399 tale.

There is the statement made by O.P. Wright in 1966 (In "six seconds in Dallas") describing a completely different bullet as the one now known as CE399, there is the interview of Tomlinson by Raymond Marcus (part of the HSCA files) in which Tomlinson says that he was only shown a bullet for identification once and that was by SAC Shanklin in early December 1963 (I believe Shanklin showed him the actual bullet at that time) which contradicts the FBI claim in CE2011 that Odum showed CE399 to Tomlinson and Wright in mid 1964 (which Odum also denied ever doing) and the FBI Airtel written by Shanklin saying that Tomlinson and Wright could not identify the bullet allegedly shown to them by Odum. I believe Shanklin wrote that Airtel because he knew or at least understood, based on his interview with Tomlinson in December 1863) that there was a big problem with the bullet now known as CE399.

Granted, it's circumstantial, but if CE399 was on the up and up none of this would ever have happened or have been necessary (IMO)!


On the night of the assassination and overnight into Saturday morning, the limousine was searched by the FBI.  They were looking for evidence.  Smaller fragments were found but no intact bullet, like 399, was found. 

Yes, the FBI searched the limo at the Secret Service garage, but they were not the ones who found the bullet fragments. Those fragments were in fact given to them when they arrived a the garage at around 11 pm that night and they were told they had been found in the limo.

No other bullet has ever been turned in and placed into the record and this circumstantial evidence alone gets 399 admitted into evidence.

It's up to the jury to decide, based on a questionable chain of custody, how much weight to give CE-399 as the bullet found at Parkland.


Evidence doesn't get admitted just because no other evidence has turned up. Besides there may well be strategic reasons for the defense not to oppose a motion to introduce CE399 into evidence. Admittance into evidence does not validate that evidence one way or the other, so to make the argument that it would be admitted as if it means something is just silly.

It also does not answer my basic question; Can you or anybody else show that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland?

Also, it is up to the defense, since CE-399 was linked to Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world, to convince the jury that CE-399 was NOT the bullet found at the hospital.  Has anyone in this forum (or anywhere else) done so?


There is and never will be a jury to convince and even if there was, the burden of proof always rests on the shoulders of the prosecutor!

JFK Assassination Forum


Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
How did the conspirators (name your favourite one here; SS, CIA, FBI, Mafia etc) know they should plant a bullet in the first place? Secondly how did they know the degree of damage to the planted bullet so it matched the wounds? Ten minutes after the bullet was found JFK was still on his back on the operating table. The casket hadn't even arrived. There had been no discussion between the two groups of surgeons.

Maybe the conspirators carried a case with a dozen bullets in various stages of damage for the remote chance that the result of their ambush meant that a plant was needed. That would have required some incredible foresight. How could they be sure that the planted bullet would be found by someone with a responsible attitude like Tomlinson rather than a cleaner simply pushing the whole lot down a laundry chute?

How did the conspirators (name your favourite one here; SS, CIA, FBI, Mafia etc) know they should plant a bullet in the first place?


Silly question. You seem to be too hung up on the idea that conspirators controlled every aspect of the case, which is simply impossible. Perhaps there was no bullet planted at all. Perhaps it was just a bullet found on another unrelated stretcher which came in handy. Ever thought about that?

Everything else in your argument is flawed simply because it expands further on the primary notion that a bullet was planted when there is no certainty it actually was.


Offline Bill Brown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1802
At trial, CE-399 would most likely be determined to be admissible.  Most evidence, if the only issue with it is a questionable chain of custody, is indeed admissible.  It is then left up to the jury to decide how much weight to give a certain piece of evidence with a questionable chain of custody.

The trial judge would admit the bullet.  A questionable chain of custody of CE-399 may affect how much weight the jury gives the bullet but a questionable chain, on its own, does not affect it's admissibility.


It is pointless to speculate about the admissibility of evidence at trial as there will never be a trial. It's an understandable go-to position exactly because of the massive problems with the chain of custody as assuming CE399 would be admissible gets you passed the problem of having to explain and/or discuss the problems with the chain of custody.

Of course there will never be a real trial.  If there is no trial, then the phrase "massive problems with the chain of custody" (your phrase, not mine) is irrelevant.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 08:06:17 AM by Bill Brown »

JFK Assassination Forum


Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444

Of course there will never be a real trial.  If there is no trial, then the phrase "massive problems with the chain of custody"(your phrase, not mine) is irrelevant.


It's just as irrelevant as claiming evidence would be admitted at a trial that will never be.

Now, can you show that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland Hospital?

Offline Steve Howsley

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
... You seem to be too hung up on the idea that conspirators controlled every aspect of the case ...

So who are these conspirators you speak of? I hope you're not simply another contrarian like one or two others here who refuse to put their cards on the table.

Oh, it would be good if you would create a simple list of some aspects of the case that the conspirators did control and those they didn't control. That shouldn't be too hard?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 07:34:39 AM by Steve Howsley »

JFK Assassination Forum


Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
So if it wasn't planted Tomlinson found a bullet fired from Oswald's rifle.

So what's your position? Did the bullet get planted or was it fired from Oswald's rifle less than an hour earlier and the official line is correct?

I don't have a position, but (and this might confuse you) I don't think any bullet was planted at Parkland Hospital.

I just want to see any evidence that shows that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland Hospital. Do you have any?


Offline Steve Howsley

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
I don't have a position ...

Just as I thought. So was there a conspiracy? If so who was the mastermind? What did they have control over and what didn't they have control over? You must have some inkling surely. If there wasn't a conspiracy why would there be a switch of bullets? Put something on the table.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 07:44:22 AM by Steve Howsley »

Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
So who are these conspirators you speak of? I hope you're not simply another contrarian like one or two others here who refuse to put their cards on the table.

Oh, it would be good if you would create a simple list of some aspects of the case that the conspirators did control and those they didn't control. That shouldn't be too hard?

So who are these conspirators you speak of?

That I speak of? You were the one who brought them up;


How did the conspirators (name your favourite one here; SS, CIA, FBI, Mafia etc) know they should plant a bullet in the first place?


so why don't you tell me


Oh, it would be good if you would create a simple list of some aspects of the case that the conspirators did control and those they didn't control. That shouldn't be too hard?

There you go again, rambling on about some conspirators when all I doing is ask for evidence that proved the "Oswald did it" mantra.

JFK Assassination Forum