Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"  (Read 59825 times)

Offline Zeon Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #136 on: October 29, 2019, 04:10:28 PM »
Advertisement
Does its seem odd that Oswald would NOT have mentioned having met Mrs Reid in the 2nd floor office?

Or was this  a possible statement left out also, from Will Fritz fuzzy reconstructed typed report from his fuzzier scribbled notes of his interview not recorded on film or tape, nor stenographer present, nor attorney verification of such "notes"

What about the meeting with Pierce Allman:  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-reporters-chance-encounter-with-jfks-assassin/

Was that changed to "met a Secret Service man"   possibly to avoid the time line problem here, which is that Allman had to have entered the TSBD entrance lobby 1st floor before DPD officer Barnett has locked the doors by 3 minutes post shots .

So for Oswald to have both met Allman in the front lobby AND exited front door of TSBD before 3 minutes post shots would necessitate Oswald have to be in the lobby not later than approx 2 min 45 sec post shots, AND also have on BOTH brown shirt AND his jacket.

The only way is in the realm of reasonable probability is if Mrs Reid met Oswald about 60 sec posts shots, and Oswald having already traversed about 3/4ths distance into the office and meeting Mrs Reid as she enters the 2nd floor office front door  and both of them surprised somewhat by that meeting, which would be an explanation for Oswald saying very little and then continuing on forward since he is closer to the front door, than to the rear door'

Exiting at about 65 sec post shots, therefore, from 2nd floor office, gives Oswald time to return to 2nd floor lunchroom via hallway and thus he would have passed into the "vestibule" area approx 83 sec post shots if having traveled 90 ft plus distance at about 5 ft/sec = 16 seconds later.

83 sec post shots, Oswald opens 2nd floor lunchroom door and that opening and closing caused light intensity change streaming thru the other outer door 2'x2' window to the 2nd floor landing, which is what caught Bakers eye as Baker had just reached the 2nd floor landing and following Truly.

Oswald had just entered the lunchroom and put on his brown shirt, but not yet buttoned it,when Baker came in about 4 to 5 second later, thus it appeared "hanging loosely' to Baker.

Baker leaves Oswald then, about 10 seconds later, at about 2 minutes post shots, therefore, Oswald nows in brown shirt and possibly also could have put on his jacket left there too, has time to use back staircase and traverse 150 ft or so to the front lobby and able to meet Pierce Allman as early as 2 min 30 seconds thus has enough time to have also left front entrance door before Barnett locks it at 3 min post shots



« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 04:17:10 PM by Zeon Mason »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #136 on: October 29, 2019, 04:10:28 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4820
Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #137 on: October 29, 2019, 08:10:04 PM »
Does its seem odd that Oswald would NOT have mentioned having met Mrs Reid in the 2nd floor office?

No, because that encounter was invented!  Thumb1:

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4820
Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #138 on: October 29, 2019, 11:28:30 PM »
What’s the significance? Rosa didn’t say when this sighting occurred.

She said Ms Stanton asked Mr Oswald if he was going "out to lunch". This puts the encounter pre-assassination, lunch-time! Thumb1:

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #138 on: October 29, 2019, 11:28:30 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10815
Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #139 on: October 30, 2019, 02:57:32 AM »
She said Ms Stanton asked Mr Oswald if he was going "out to lunch". This puts the encounter pre-assassination, lunch-time! Thumb1:

Ok, but a lot of people saw him near “lunch time”.

Offline Zeon Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #140 on: October 31, 2019, 05:32:26 PM »
the relatives account of what Sarah Stanton may have said, is that Oswald had a coke in his hand (or "pepsi") at the time of meeting, so either Oswald had already gotten a Dr.Pepper from the 1st floor machine by the rear stairs or he had just gotten a coke from the 2nd floor lunchroom machine and exited the lunchroom BEFORE Sarah then saw Oswald.

In either case, that would be before Oswald is seen sitting in the 2nd floor lunchroom by Carolyn Arnold at 12:15  depending which FBI statement or which later 1978 statement by Carolyn Arnold is the correct one.

So if Oswald already has coke or Dr.Pepper and  he is on his way down to eat lunch in the Domino room, that would have to be in the range of about 12:10 to have seen Norman and Jarman at that time, still in the TSBD. They left sometime very shortly after 12:10 and not later than 12:15 to go around to the front of the TSBD.

So what did Oswald do then? Did he stay in the Domino room from 12:12 until about 12:14 and then went BACK up to the 2nd floor lunchroom, got himself ANOTHER coke, and then he decided to sit down there and continue eating the remainder of his lunch there for at least another few minutes such to be observed by Carolyn Arnold from 12:15?

If what  Oswald is alleged to have stated in Will Fritz office is that he "went out to see the presidential parade" then it follows that Oswald must have left the 2nd floor lunchroom a few minutes after 12:15 to go down to the 1st floor lobby, and perhaps that is why there is also the Carolyn Arnold FBI statement of having seen Oswald on the ground floor at about 12:25.

But getting Oswald out the door and standing somewhere on the front entrance and then back into the lobby again and either meeting Baker there on 1st floor or on the 2nd floor lunchroom later is a very difficult problem to work out especially with no witness at all having seen Oswald after 12:25 until about 12:31:30


« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 05:35:17 PM by Zeon Mason »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #140 on: October 31, 2019, 05:32:26 PM »


Offline Mark A. Oblazney

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 455
Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #141 on: October 31, 2019, 07:19:42 PM »
If Oswald shot Kennedy, and there was only one Oswald, how could he be PrayerDude?  Some of you are miscontrued, I'm afraid.  You must re-think your assumptions.  Just my opinion.

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4820
Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #142 on: October 31, 2019, 11:23:03 PM »
So there exists the plausible sequence that Oswald went down to the Domino room and lingered there for some reason with INTENT of eventually going out to "see the presidential parade" at the last minute, but never actually did and thus perhaps it was Oswald exiting from Domino room and meeting Baker on the 1st floor as Baker and Truly ran diagonally across to the elevators about 65 sec post shots.

Nope, not plausible-----------Hosty's notes say 'Then went outside to watch P. parade', not 'Then intended to go outside to watch P. parade but was stopped on first floor by officer & Mr Truly'!

If an innocent Mr Oswald hadn't managed to go outside, why would he later make a self-incriminating false claim that he had in fact done so? All he need do is tell the alibi-establishing truth------my boss and a police officer saw me right after the shots on the first floor, so I can't have been upstairs.

There really is no need for contorted interpretations and convoluted scenarios here:

Mr Oswald did go outside, he was captured on the Wiegman film standing just behind Mr Lovelady (at his right-hand shoulder)----------------



---------------and he had an encounter with Officer Baker (and Mr Truly) at the entrance.

None of these facts are dependent on his being PrayerMan in Darnell, though they do lend considerable support to that identification!

So! If you wish to maintain that he was lying when he claimed to have been out front, you need to explain why there is a magic dark 'shadow' down Mr Lovelady's right side in the Wiegman film:



 Thumb1:
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 10:14:23 AM by Alan Ford »

Offline Colin Crow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1860
Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #143 on: November 01, 2019, 04:15:10 AM »
The official story has Oswald exiting the front entrance about 3 minutes after the shots. At a time Bill Shelley was no where near the front entrance. Yet dumb'ass Oswald once again knowingly uses employees who were not in a position to support his alibi. Shelley was at City Hall that afternoon until 5pm. Oswald was seen by Lovelady and Williams, the latter rode in the same car as Shelley to HQ. There are images of Oswald walking right passed Lovelady.

From Shelley's first day statement.

"I didn't see Lee until the Police brought him into the Police Homicide Bureau."

Would seem to confirm that Shelley saw arrive Oswald in custody about 2pm.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #143 on: November 01, 2019, 04:15:10 AM »