Oswald spent shells fingerprints?

[Steve Thomas]

3 spent cartridges on the floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
1 live round in the rifle - that makes 4
4 cartridges recovered at the scene of Tippit's shooting - that makes 8
5 rounds found in Oswald's pocket - that makes 13
a fully loaded revolver with 6 rounds - that makes 19
On 19 bullets or cartridges, Oswald's fingerprints were not found on a single one of them?
Was anyone's prints found on any of them?
Doesn't that seem odd?

Were the spent shells from the revolver ever tested for fingerprints? I just don't remember.
The reason I ask is that Benavides told the WC that he had seen the shooter take 2 shells out of the gun and throw them.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/benavide.htm

?Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.?
?Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. As he turned the corner he was putting another shell in his gun.
Mr. BELIN - You saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I mean, he was acting like. I didn't see him actually put a shell in his gun, but he acted like he was trying to reload it.?
?Mr. BELIN - Now you saw him throw two shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.?
 
He also told the the WC that he (Benavides) had picked one up and then dropped it back down in the grass.
When he gave the shells to Poe, why didn't Poe ask him where he got them?
Mr. BELIN - When the officers came out there, did you tell them what you had seen?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I left right after. I give the shells to the officer. I turned around and went back and we returned to work.

Poe never asked, "Where did you get these"? and "How did they get there?"

Later that evening, around 4:00 PM, two officers came to see him....
"I was just trying to hide from the reporters and everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen..."

After knowing that Benavides had seen the suspect take two empty shells and throw them, did they fingerprint the shells? Wouldn't that have established for sure that Oswald was there?
Did they fingerprint Benavides?
Apparently they didn't fingerprint him.
Mr. BELIN - Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if you could identify him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; they didn't.
Which means that he wasn't taken down to the station to be fingerprinted either as a means of eliminating him as a suspect.

According to Day's WC testimony, both the empty shells and the live round were tested for fingerprints, and no prints at all were found.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/day1.htm
Mr. DAY. Were taken, I processed these three hulls (found at the TSBD) for fingerprints, using a powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three; did not find fingerprints.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what exactly you did in testing those hulls for fingerprints?
Mr. DAY. I used fingerprint powder, dusted them with the powder, a dark powder. No legible prints were found.
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz took possession of it. I retained possession of the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Did you process this live round at all for prints?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I did. I did not find any prints.

What about the shells Benavides says he saw Oswald throw?

Steve Thomas

[Walt Cakebread]

3 spent cartridges on the floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
1 live round in the rifle - that makes 4
4 cartridges recovered at the scene of Tippit's shooting - that makes 8
5 rounds found in Oswald's pocket - that makes 13
a fully loaded revolver with 6 rounds - that makes 19
On 19 bullets or cartridges, Oswald's fingerprints were not found on a single one of them?
Was anyone's prints found on any of them?
Doesn't that seem odd?

Were the spent shells from the revolver ever tested for fingerprints? I just don't remember.
The reason I ask is that Benavides told the WC that he had seen the shooter take 2 shells out of the gun and throw them.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/benavide.htm

?Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.?
?Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. As he turned the corner he was putting another shell in his gun.
Mr. BELIN - You saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I mean, he was acting like. I didn't see him actually put a shell in his gun, but he acted like he was trying to reload it.?
?Mr. BELIN - Now you saw him throw two shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.?

He also told the the WC that he (Benavides) had picked one up and then dropped it back down in the grass.
When he gave the shells to Poe, why didn't Poe ask him where he got them?
Mr. BELIN - When the officers came out there, did you tell them what you had seen?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I left right after. I give the shells to the officer. I turned around and went back and we returned to work.

Poe never asked, "Where did you get these"? and "How did they get there?"

Later that evening, around 4:00 PM, two officers came to see him....
"I was just trying to hide from the reporters and everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen..."

After knowing that Benavides had seen the suspect take two empty shells and throw them, did they fingerprint the shells? Wouldn't that have established for sure that Oswald was there?
Did they fingerprint Benavides?
Apparently they didn't fingerprint him.
Mr. BELIN - Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if you could identify him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; they didn't.
Which means that he wasn't taken down to the station to be fingerprinted either as a means of eliminating him as a suspect.

According to Day's WC testimony, both the empty shells and the live round were tested for fingerprints, and no prints at all were found.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/day1.htm
Mr. DAY. Were taken, I processed these three hulls (found at the TSBD) for fingerprints, using a powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three; did not find fingerprints.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what exactly you did in testing those hulls for fingerprints?
Mr. DAY. I used fingerprint powder, dusted them with the powder, a dark powder. No legible prints were found.
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz took possession of it. I retained possession of the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Did you process this live round at all for prints?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I did. I did not find any prints.

What about the shells Benavides says he saw Oswald throw?

Steve Thomas

?Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.?

?Mr. BELIN - Now you saw him throw two shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.?

The spent shells from a Smith & Wesson revolver are NOT unloaded one at a time.  The killer was not using a Smith & Wesson revolver like the one that made it's debut at the Texas theater at about 1:50 pm that day.

What about the shells Benavides says he saw Oswald throw?

Benavides DID NOT identify the killer as "Oswald"..... Benavides referred to the killer "as this other man" and "the man who shot him"

Later that evening, around 4:00 PM, two officers came to see him....
"I was just trying to hide from the reporters and everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen..."

Since Domingo Benavides never referred to Tippit's killer as "Oswald" it should be obvious that he didn't believe the man was Oswald .....  He had seen Lee Oswald on TV that afternoon and he knew that the police had arrested the wrong man, and he told them that he could not identify Oswald as the killer....naturally the police wouldn't have wanted Benavides to view a line up.

[Steve Thomas]

?Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.?

?Mr. BELIN - Now you saw him throw two shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.?

The spent shells from a Smith & Wesson revolver are NOT unloaded one at a time.  The killer was not using a Smith & Wesson revolver like the one that made it's debut at the Texas theater at about 1:50 pm that day.

What about the shells Benavides says he saw Oswald throw?

Benavides DID NOT identify the killer as "Oswald"..... Benavides referred to the killer "as this other man" and "the man who shot him"

Later that evening, around 4:00 PM, two officers came to see him....
"I was just trying to hide from the reporters and everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen..."

Walt, you're right. I should have used the word "suspect" instead of "Oswald".

I just read through the only mention of Benavides in the DPD Archives. It's a Report by James Leavelle.
DPD Archives Box 16, Folder# 12, Item# 6.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1617.htm

It's dated the 22nd, and it had to have been written up after 6:30PM, because he mentions the 6:30 lineup.
Leavelle wrote, "Another witness who saw the officer laying in the street, but did not see the suspect was a Domingo Benavides..."
Leavelle wrote that Benavides found two shells and turned them over to Poe, who in turn, turned them over to Pete Barnes, who "dusted the car for prints".
Why didn't Barnes dust the shells for prints right then and there while he had his fingerprint dusting kit out?

Benavides told the WC that he told the officers who came to his house at 4:00 PM what he had seen.

Someone is lying through their teeth.

Steve Thomas

[Jerry Organ]

Excerpts from "Hot bullet casings can still finger the criminal" ( Link )

     
       A fingerprint revealed on a used bullet casing ?
       until now it was thought impossible because
       casings become so hot when a bullet is fired

     Fingerprinting dust clings to organic compounds like amino acids
     and urea from skin to reveal prints. But any of those residues
     on a bullet are likely to be burned away when it is fired, typically
     reaching temperatures above 200?C.

     "At high temperature, those salts are molten and you get a
     chemical reaction with the metal." Those reactions chemically etch
     the fingerprint into the surface of the bullet casing when the
     cartridge is fired ? and no amount of washing or wiping will remove it.

     However, the technique only works with certain metals, Bond explains.

     The best results are found with copper, a key component of brass.
     "Fortunately most shell cases are made from brass," says Bond.

________

This explains why, using the traditional technique, there were no legible prints on expended hulls that might have had a fingerprint on them to begin with.

Some unfired bullets might not have had a viable fingerprint impression because of factors like the amount of surface contacted, transference of most of the finger's oils and water to an object prior to picking up the bullet and so on.

One test done in California ( Link ) attempted a "best-case scenario" ("a deliberate attempt to impress fingerprints on the test cartridges for this study") for finding prints on cartridge cases.

    "None of the eccrine/sweat prints on the next 16 brass, nickel and
     aluminum cartridges were visible before processing.  After processing,
     no useable or identifiable prints were developed.

     The last set of prints examined were oily prints on 16 fired and
     unfired cartridges.  Only three prints were classified as usable or
     identifiable after fingerprint processing and these prints were found
     only on cartridges that had not been fired."

For some reason, the study delayed the examination: "The fired and unfired cartridges were stored for several months at room temperature and then processed for fingerprints." But I found another study ( Link ) that concluded: "Over a  three-month period six different surface  types  were tested to see  if time, temperature, and surface made an impact on fingerprinting. Results suggest that time did not play a factor on quality of fingerprints lifted."

[Walt Cakebread]

Walt, you're right. I should have used the word "suspect" instead of "Oswald".

I just read through the only mention of Benavides in the DPD Archives. It's a Report by James Leavelle.
DPD Archives Box 16, Folder# 12, Item# 6.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1617.htm

It's dated the 22nd, and it had to have been written up after 6:30PM, because he mentions the 6:30 lineup.
Leavelle wrote, "Another witness who saw the officer laying in the street, but did not see the suspect was a Domingo Benavides..."
Leavelle wrote that Benavides found two shells and turned them over to Poe, who in turn, turned them over to Pete Barnes, who "dusted the car for prints".
Why didn't Barnes dust the shells for prints right then and there while he had his fingerprint dusting kit out?

Benavides told the WC that he told the officers who came to his house at 4:00 PM what he had seen.

Someone is lying through their teeth.

Steve Thomas

Someone is lying through their teeth.

Let's see if we can find the liar......

Leavelle wrote, "Another witness who saw the officer laying in the street, but did not see the suspect was a Domingo Benavides..."

Domingo  Benavides definite DID see the "suspect"  ( Who was not merely a suspect..Benavides KNEW the man was the killer)

So Leavelle is lying when he wrote that Domingo Benavides did not see the suspect------- 

But Wait just a minute.....Maybe Leavelle is saying that Banavides DID NOT see the "suspect" who at that time was Lee Oswald....hmmmm

[Richard Smith]

If Oswald's prints were found, they would be dismissed as the product of fakery.  Or some kook like John or Martin would argue that it doesn't mean Oswald killed Tippit, just that he touched the bullets at some point.  Just as with the bag, SN boxes, rifle etc.  An endless game of Alice-in-Wonderland logic to avoid admitting checkmate on Oswald's guilt.

[John Iacoletti]

If Oswald's prints were found, they would be dismissed as the product of fakery.

Mr Strawman strikes again.  Oswald's prints weren't found.

But anything to avoid admitting that your case is weak and flawed.

[Steve Thomas]

But Wait just a minute.....Maybe Leavelle is saying that Banavides DID NOT see the "suspect" who at that time was Lee Oswald....hmmmm

Walt,

That crossed my mind at the time.
We can argue all day long about whether or not it was Oswald whom Benavides saw, but right now, I'm more interested in the fingerprints on the shells that were handled after the gun had been fired. Benavides seems more interested in possible contamination of the evidence than the police were.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=146444#relPageId=140&tab=page
page 494
This is FBI RIF# 124-10037-10242

These comes from the book, With Malice by Dale Myers. This an online version, and the pages aren't numbered in this version, so I can't point you right to it, but the two memos are about 3/5 of the way down the online book version.
https://books.google.com/books?id=IdnhAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT757&lpg=PT757&dq=%22Domingo+Benavides%22+CBS&source=bl&ots=eODtmXcfZ5&sig=FqLkfGuuiw6qUA5NRAnj1nJeifk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0trfvxfPYAhVD7IMKHX2PCoA4ChDoAQgpMAE#v=onepage&q=%22Domingo%20Benavides%22%20CBS&f=false
If you have the paper copy of Myers' book, I think the two memos are on pages 493 and 494.


Memo from Gordon Shanklin to the file dated March 12, 1964
Shanklin is summarizing a phone call from Ivan Conrad from the Bureau wanting to know why the Dallas FBI had only sent one bullet taken from the body of J.D, Tippit as well as the cartidges recovered at the scene. Conrad says the cartridges cases that were recovered at the scene were identified as having been fired from Lee Harvey Oswald's gun, but goes on to ask, ?Where's the rest of the bullets? Didn't you tell the police that the FBI would help in examining everything? Shanklin said, yes, we told them we would examine anything they wanted. In the call, Conrad said he would put in the memo to the Director that, ?at the time the offer was made, this was the only evidence they wished us to examine at that time.?

I still don't see any evidence that the cartridge cases were dusted for fingerprints.

Another FBI file from SA Joseph J. Loeffler to SAC (89-43) dated December 4, 1963.
https://books.google.com/books?id=IdnhAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT757&lpg=PT757&dq=%22Domingo+Benavides%22+CBS&source=bl&ots=eODtmXcfZ5&sig=FqLkfGuuiw6qUA5NRAnj1nJeifk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0trfvxfPYAhVD7IMKHX2PCoA4ChDoAQgpMAE#v=onepage&q=%22Domingo%20Benavides%22%20CBS&f=false

?4 empty hulls ? 2 found by unidentified witness at the scene of the shooting of Tippit ? 400 E. 10th St. and given to Officer, J.M. Poe. He has no recollection of who gave them to him.? The memo goes on to talk about the shells found by the Davis sisters.

Poe's after-action report dated 11/22/63
DPD Archives, Box 1, Folder# 4, Item# 5
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm
Poe wrote, "Unidentified  witness handed Officer Poe two empty hulls in an empty cigarette package and stated, "These were the bullets that killed the officer.".

An Poe just let him walk away?

That defies logic and credulity.

Steve Thomas