Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting

[Walt Cakebread]

Thanks guys, really good points and interesting. I had also given some thought to the angle that he had somehow been given instructions to remain inside in the lunch room, but couldn't quite put a finger on why. Matthew Smith's "The Second Plot" neatly ties the evidence of the framing operation as well as the actual assassination together, but I didn't quite feel that he nailed it with regards to why Lee was in the lunch room.

The fake shot operation angle is a good one and I'd not thought of it in relation to the Walker angle before. This could all tie in with the "curtain rails" episode as well, as well as creating Fraser as an alibi that Lee was carrying a long package into work.

Good point about the rifle's hiding spot too - that has always bothered me how it was positioned, not thrown down. And how it was carefully put by the staircase to leave a false trail of breadcrumbs - whereas if it was actually Lee from the claimed location surely he would have just thrown it down anywhere knowing it would be found anyway. But the fact that it was so carefully hidden suggests it was done hours/days beforehand so it would not be discovered until the day.

Good point about the rifle's hiding spot too - that has always bothered me how it was positioned, not thrown down.

Be alert....  You seem to be referring to the official photos that show the rifle inserted between the boxes that made up the south side of the aisle at the top of the stairs, and sme boxes immediately south of that aisle row of boxes....Those photos that show the rifle inserted between boxes are NOT authentic photos.... They are photos that were taken of the "re- created crime scene". And I'm not sure that there was actually a rifle in the photo when the shutter was snapped....  I suspect that the rifle that APPEARS to be between the boxes was actually put there photographically.  ( With the phones now available, kids perform this trick everyday)  Luckily there was a reporter named Tom Alyea who managed to film the rifle as Lt Day picked it up from THE FLOOR and his film recorded the rifle lying on it's right side with the barrel pointing east and the leather sling up.

Detective Robert Studebaker made many accurate measurements to record various evidence on the six floor.   Studebaker recorded that the rifle was lying on the floor with the barrel pointing east and the butt of the rifle about four feet from the west wall of the building.  Stubaker recorded that the rifle was 15 feet 4 inches from the north wall of the building ( The rifle was about 8 feet from the top of the stairs in the NW corner of the building)   Studebaker recorded that the floor support pillars between floors,  were 12 feet from the north wall of the building.   

The rifle was on the floor beneath a pallet of boxes of books about thee feet south of the floor support pillar...IOW the rifle was about five feet from the aisle ( which was formed by the row of book boxes) Any person who would have been in the aisle and who would attempt to place an eight pound rifle on the floor beneath a pallet of book boxes would have to be about ten feet tall..... 

What I have posted is FACTUAL information... and it utterly destroys the official lie  that has Lee Oswald dashing through the area and hastily dumping the rifle as he fled.   


 And how it was carefully put by the staircase to leave a false trail of breadcrumbs - whereas if it was actually Lee from the claimed location surely he would have just thrown it down anywhere knowing it would be found anyway.
But the fact that it was so carefully hidden suggests it was done hours/days beforehand so it would not be discovered until the day.

I believe the rifle was carefully hidden there beneath those boxes of books after the work crew left the area and went to lunch....

You may recall that Marina said that Lee told her that he hid the rifle beneath some brush when he fired a bullet through Walker's window....

The idea behind his action was to gain enough time to escape to Cuba by way of Mexico.....He thought that tracking dogs would sniff out the rifle and then it would take a couple of days to trace the rifle to him...and by that time he would be out of the country and on his way to Cuba, to fulfill his spy mission for the US.

[Alan Hardaker]

Hi Ben,.... And welcome to the circus .....

when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Nobody could have traveled from the SE corner of the sixth floor to the 2nd floor Lunchroom in the time allotted for the feat by the cover up committee.....And please be advised that the rifle was NOT hastily tossed aside as The cover up committee proposed....The rifle had been carefully hidden beneath a pallet of heavy boxes of books that was unreachable from the aisle at the top of the stairs.

My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past?

IMO Lee thought he was participating in a ruse ( hoax) in which it would appear that he had taken a shot at JFK and missed . (This the basic same hoax MO that he was involved in at General Walker's house in April of 1963)  He was lead to believe that Castro would welcome him to Cuba if he had tried to kill an enemy of Castro.   Thus he would be able to spy on Cuba. 

He stayed inside out of sight where no camera could record him doing something innocuous at the time he was supposed to be shooting at JFK....
If such a photo were taken it would have been his ticket to Castro's firing squad if the photo were seen by Castro.

Lee told his interrogators that he was on the first floor at the time that JFK passed by the tSBD and he went to the second floor for a coke and that's where he was when Officer Baker and Roy Truly encountered him.....


Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

Because he thought that he was fleeing to Cuba...as a fugitive who had taken a shot at JFK.

Can't seriously think anyone can accept this. I mean it's just blatant guesswork. And I think there was almost 2 minutes between the fatal head shot and the meet between Baker,Truly and the gunman. So the gunman had enough time to get from the 6th to the 2nd and as the gunman was reasonable fit, he was able to appear reasonable calm.

Really have to have a more credible explanation.

[Alan Hardaker]

Hi folks,

New member and my first post - I've been a long-time reader of all things JFK and believe I'm "getting there" regarding my knowledge of the case. Rather than call myself a conspiracy theorist (which I believe has become a dismissal of anyone that does not accept official findings), I would describe myself as a non-acceptor of the Warren Report's conclusion mainly because of its treatment of witnesses, selectivity with the evidence, the presence/influence of Dulles, and the whole Ruby episode (2 lone gunmen in 3 days - really?).

As to Oswald's role, I'm actually nearly fully convinced that he was totally innocent and was setup. But there are a few bits that bother me. In particular, when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

I know one potential answer for the lunch room question is Doorman, or that he'd been given specific instructions in order to frame him more effectively, and that a potential angle for his rapid departure from the TSBD is the Red Bird angle, but I just wondered what everyone's views on these couple of specific items were.

Cheers
Ben

Now come on, be serious. The gunman left because he knew he had to get out of there. If he was just trying to get a few hours off work, why did he then go and shoot a policeman. Ruby wasn't connected to the assassination, he was just another odd ball character in this very straight forward case.

[Alan Hardaker]

   Those of us that have worked a minimum wage/dead end job know you exit stage left whenever possible. Nothing suspicious regarding Oswald taking that action.  The people that worked with him were in agreement that Oswald kept to himself. This makes him being alone inside the lunchroom consistent with that general assessment. What does cast suspicion in his direction is his going back to his boarding room and Allegedly arming himself with a hand gun.  If true, this displays his knowing that he was in the Jackpot.

Oh well that explains it. Oswald was bunking off work for a few hours...I just wish you had told us that 50 odd years ago.Save all stuff about LHO being the assassin. By the way why did LHO murder a policeman...was it because he was just a little bit bored and thought "I know I'll shoot a policeman"..

[Walt Cakebread]

Oh well that explains it. Oswald was bunking off work for a few hours...I just wish you had told us that 50 odd years ago.Save all stuff about LHO being the assassin. By the way why did LHO murder a policeman...was it because he was just a little bit bored and thought "I know I'll shoot a policeman"..

Pssst..Hardacher....    How does the FACT that Lee Oswald was standing on the sidewalk in front of his rooming house at the very moment that Helen Markham was watching Tippit as he talked to the man who shot him a couple of minutes later, effect your theory? 

[Michael Walton]

To the new member,

It's important not to speculate too much and too wildly.  We simply don't know if LHO left in a rush or waltzed down the street after the shooting. Further - does it really matter? You also have to take LHO at his word - he said he was patsy; he said he was "out front with Shelley;" he said he went to "change his trousers and pick up his pistol." He said the backyard photos were fake and in time he could prove it. We should not cherry pick what he said to fit a certain plan that day. The whole key to the case and LHO is that he was steered into that job and that building because the planners had advance knowledge that the car was going to go by on 11/22.

It's important, too, to not get too carried away with ridiculous, outlandish and plain stupid wild and crazy theories. This whole conspiracy did not have to be carried out by hundreds of people; it was not necessary to have a bevy of mad scientists performing all manner of faking the photos and films; it was not necessary for evil agents to take the Z film and remove 67% of the frames from it to cover up "something" in the Z film (what that "something" was has never to this day been revealed); it was not necessary for mad doctors with scalpels at the ready to squirrel the president's body away enroute to Love, throw it down into the cargo hold, then sneak it out the back on the Andrews tarmac and onto a thrumming helicopter where all manner of body alterations took place; it was not necessary to have a LHO clone from way back in 1953, a clone that was discovered in eastern Europe no less, and this clone literally living in the real LHO's shadows for 10 years until 11/22. If you start falling for ridiculous stuff like this, then you might as well start believing the moon landings were fake.

For CTers who really and truly believe in this garbage, they simply cannot help themselves. For the Lone Nutters who, to this day, believe every single word the WC put out back in 1964, I think what it really boils down to for them is this - they simply don't like Kennedy, for whatever reason.  He was rich; he was a playboy; his Dad was crooked; he was soft on Communism; he was a Democrat; he was too liberal; he supported African Americans and their civil rights; and on and on.  In their warped way of thinking, because they simply don't like Kennedy, they absolutely refuse to open their eyes just a little bit to see the many discrepancies of the case. Put another way, If the shoe was literally on the other foot, that if it was a family member who had been murdered or one of their favorite all-time heroes, you can be sure they'd be combing through the reports looking for something contrary. But for Kennedy, in their mind, pbbtt - he doesn't "deserve" a fair and partial investigation of his murder.

I suggest you read George Michael Evica's books A Certain Arrogance and We Are All Mortal. They are free online. Also read Bill Simpich's State Secret, also free online. Pat Speer also has a great website where he covers pretty much the entire case in great detail.

Good luck.

[Walt Cakebread]

To the new member,

It's important not to speculate too much and too wildly.  We simply don't know if LHO left in a rush or waltzed down the street after the shooting. Further - does it really matter? You also have to take LHO at his word - he said he was patsy; he said he was "out front with Shelley;" he said he went to "change his trousers and pick up his pistol." He said the backyard photos were fake and in time he could prove it. We should not cherry pick what he said to fit a certain plan that day. The whole key to the case and LHO is that he was steered into that job and that building because the planners had advance knowledge that the car was going to go by on 11/22.

It's important, too, to not get too carried away with ridiculous, outlandish and plain stupid wild and crazy theories. This whole conspiracy did not have to be carried out by hundreds of people; it was not necessary to have a bevy of mad scientists performing all manner of faking the photos and films; it was not necessary for evil agents to take the Z film and remove 67% of the frames from it to cover up "something" in the Z film (what that "something" was has never to this day been revealed); it was not necessary for mad doctors with scalpels at the ready to squirrel the president's body away enroute to Love, throw it down into the cargo hold, then sneak it out the back on the Andrews tarmac and onto a thrumming helicopter where all manner of body alterations took place; it was not necessary to have a LHO clone from way back in 1953, a clone that was discovered in eastern Europe no less, and this clone literally living in the real LHO's shadows for 10 years until 11/22. If you start falling for ridiculous stuff like this, then you might as well start believing the moon landings were fake.

For CTers who really and truly believe in this garbage, they simply cannot help themselves. For the Lone Nutters who, to this day, believe every single word the WC put out back in 1964, I think what it really boils down to for them is this - they simply don't like Kennedy, for whatever reason.  He was rich; he was a playboy; his Dad was crooked; he was soft on Communism; he was a Democrat; he was too liberal; he supported African Americans and their civil rights; and on and on.  In their warped way of thinking, because they simply don't like Kennedy, they absolutely refuse to open their eyes just a little bit to see the many discrepancies of the case. Put another way, If the shoe was literally on the other foot, that if it was a family member who had been murdered or one of their favorite all-time heroes, you can be sure they'd be combing through the reports looking for something contrary. But for Kennedy, in their mind, pbbtt - he doesn't "deserve" a fair and partial investigation of his murder.

I suggest you read George Michael Evica's books A Certain Arrogance and We Are All Mortal. They are free online. Also read Bill Simpich's State Secret, also free online. Pat Speer also has a great website where he covers pretty much the entire case in great detail.

Good luck.

It's important not to speculate too much and too wildly.  We simply don't know if LHO left in a rush or waltzed down the street after the shooting. Further - does it really matter? You also have to take LHO at his word - he said he was patsy; he said he was "out front with Shelley;" he said he went to "change his trousers and pick up his pistol." He said the backyard photos were fake and in time he could prove it. We should not cherry pick what he said to fit a certain plan that day. The whole key to the case and LHO is that he was steered into that job and that building because the planners had advance knowledge that the car was going to go by on 11/22.

We simply don't know if LHO left in a rush or waltzed down the street after the shooting.

The words..."After the shooting" seems to connect him to that event...

A more honest presentation would be ...We simply don't know if Lee Oswald left in a hurry,  or simply walked down the street to the bus, when he left the TSBD.[/b]

You also have to take LHO at his word - he said he was patsy; he said he was "out front with Shelley;" he said he went to "change his trousers and pick up his pistol."

Take LHO at his word??   Do you have a recording of Lee saying any of the things that you believe he said?....

You have placed the words  "change his trousers and pick up his pistol." in quotation marks....But there is solid evidence from the detectives who searched Lee's room that that Lee changed BOTH his SHIRT and trousers, not just his trousers....and there is no evidence that he ever told anybody that he "picked up his pistol " in his room....

He said the backyard photos were fake and in time he could prove it.

Lee DID NOT say the back yard photos were fake....Captain Fritz apparently showed him a single PHOTO....( not photos) and Lee said it was a fake...

That does NOT mean that he was saying all three PHOTOS are fakes....He was referring only to the ONE photo...And there is good reason to believe that the one photo he saw was 133c...and I do believe that photo is a fake....

The whole key to the case and LHO is that he was steered into that job and that building because the planners had advance knowledge that the car was going to go by on 11/22.

Yes , You're right....  And it should also be obvious to you that the only people who knew that information at the time that Lee was sent to the TSBD to apply for a job by Ruth Paine, were high officials in Washington DC.... like J. Edgar Hoover.

[Oscar Navarro]

Hi folks,

New member and my first post - I've been a long-time reader of all things JFK and believe I'm "getting there" regarding my knowledge of the case. Rather than call myself a conspiracy theorist (which I believe has become a dismissal of anyone that does not accept official findings), I would describe myself as a non-acceptor of the Warren Report's conclusion mainly because of its treatment of witnesses, selectivity with the evidence, the presence/influence of Dulles, and the whole Ruby episode (2 lone gunmen in 3 days - really?).

As to Oswald's role, I'm actually nearly fully convinced that he was totally innocent and was setup. But there are a few bits that bother me. In particular, when he was in the lunch room at the time Truly and Baker swept the building, whether or not he could have made it there in time from the 6th floor isn't the point to me. My question is, what does everyone think about such a clearly politically interested guy as Lee choosing to eat his lunch indoors while the President's motorcade went past? I find that difficult to get my head round, or is there something I've missed?

Similarly - why did he take off so suddenly afterwards?

I know one potential answer for the lunch room question is Doorman, or that he'd been given specific instructions in order to frame him more effectively, and that a potential angle for his rapid departure from the TSBD is the Red Bird angle, but I just wondered what everyone's views on these couple of specific items were.

Cheers
Ben

Welcome to the forum, Ben. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends. I'll answer your two questions with very simple answers. Oswald was not eating his lunch (no witnesses saw him ) but was in the 6th floor of the TSBD from where he shot three rounds from c2766 and killed JFK and wounded JBC. He then proceeded to flee, staching c2766 next to the staircase on the NW corner of the TSBD behind some boxes (all he had to do was to lean over two boxes to stach the rifle. Don't believe that ridiculous theory proposed by Foghorn Leghorn). He was caught by officer Baker on the second floor lunchroom but was letgo due to one of the most unfortunate spur of the moment decisions made by a police officer.

Oswald then proceeded to flee the scene of the crime as quickly as possible without arousing suspicion. He was successful in getting away from Dealy Plaza for the time being but would have been a prime suspect soon thereafter anyway and a manhunt would eventually have caught him even if he hadn't killed Officer Tippit.