Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting

[John Iacoletti]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

[Bill Chapman]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Point out where I ever said I was right about the evidence

[Colin Crow]

The timeline for Norman's and Jarman's presence on the first floor is sketchy.
 

Now lets look at Jarman's various submissions.

November 23 DPD Statement
Jarman provided the following statement about the events on the day after the assassination.
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
before ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared James Earl Jarman, Jr., c/m 33, 3942 Atlanta Street, Dallas, Texas HA8-1837 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
I work for the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, as a Checker on the first floor for Mr. Roy S. Truly. On Friday, November 22, 1963, I got to work at 8:05 a.m. The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was about 8:15 a.m. He was filling orders on the first floor. A little after 9:00 a.m. Lee Oswald asked me what all the people were doing standing on the street. I told him that the President was supposed to come this way sometime this morning. He asked me, "Which way do you think he is coming?". I told him that the President would probably come down Main Street and turn on Houston and then go down Elm Street. He said, "Yes, I see". I only talked with him for about three or four minutes. The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.
/s/ James Earl Jarman, Jr.
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN before ME THIS 23rd DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Patsy Collins
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

There are no details about anything after the shots, the sole focus of this statement is on the prime suspect Oswald and Oswald alone. Jarman offered no details about how many shots or his proximity to them. Note that on this same day, Oswald has supposedly claimed under interrogation that Jarman and Norman had eaten lunch with them.

FBI Interview Nov 24
Jarman was interviewed the following day by the FBI and a statement produced. This statement is consistent with his DPD statement the previous day. The additional information provided largely centres on his presence on the fifth floor, who he was with at the time of the shots and his recollection of what happened immediately after. His recall of his positioning and co-workers at the fifth floor windows is accurate compared to the imprecise descriptions of positioning provided by Bonnie Ray. There was no mention of the ascent prior to the shots.

Secret Service Interview December 2nd
Jarman was interviewed by the SS in the first week of December and his statement formed part of WC document 87. "After eating his lunch he went with Williams and Jarman to fifth floor".

January 14 FBI
Jarman was interviewed by the FBI in mid-January and in this statement he claimed he ate his lunch with Williams and Norman on the first floor after noon.

"He said that he and Harold "Hank" Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams were all employed at the TSBD at Dallas in November 22, 1963. He said that he and the other two boys ate lunch on the first floor about noon on November 22, 1963, and shortly afterwards went to the fifth floor about 12.25 pm, on the west elevator in the building in order to watch the Presidential parade. He said they stayed there until they heard the sound of the shots; then they went downstairs. He said Ray and Norman were with him all the time he was on the first floor and they did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time between 12.00 noon until they returned to the first floor after the shooting."

This is reinforced by saying that the other two were in his company the whole time they were on the first floor. He recalls they took the west elevator up to the fifth floor about 12.25. Note the time is 12.25.....pretty close to the time from Norman's final account he but tries once again to includes Williams with them from noon onwards.

March 24 WC Testimony
Jarman now meets up with Norman his way outside. They were with Givens and Arce and stood west of the steps on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD. He originally added Williams to that group but his memory is quickly "corrected" by Joseph Ball. He noticed Truly and Campbell east of the steps. When asked about Lovelady, he remembered him "(they) came out later". I assume was he referring to Shelley as well? If Williams joined Norman and Jarman on the fifth floor before 12.15, Truly, Campbell and Lovelady were already outside minutes before this time.

Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.
Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - To the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We just decided to go to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?
Mr. JARMAN - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.
Mr. BALL - When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.

Representative FORD - You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.
Representative FORD - But in front of the building?
Mr. JARMAN - In front of the building.
Representative FORD - Then you said you went around the building.
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.
Representative FORD - Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?
Mr. JARMAN - Right here.
Representative FORD - In which direction did you go then?
Mr. JARMAN - This way.
Representative FORD - You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Right, sir.

Note that when he arrived at the east elevator closest to the back door it was not visible from that position. It was confirmed it was on the sixth floor after they arrived at the west elevator and looked up. He estimates the time was 12.25-12.28, just minutes before the shots. After reaching the SE corner they opened the windows, at that time Williams could have been aware of their presence. Whether that was the reason for him vacating the 6th floor or something else happened after they were there is an interesting question. What would make Williams leave his chicken unfinished and exit the "shooting scene" to join them just before the motorcade arrived?

[Colin Crow]

Yes, I do believe that he made that statement in one of the interview sessions. Secret Service Agent Thomas Kelley also heard him say it.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29105#relPageId=1&tab=page

Let's tackle this one........

Here is a picture of the notes attributed to Fritz that relate to the alibi and Jarman and Norman.



Note the (3) in the top right. This indicates it is page 3 of his notes and likely refers not to the first interrogation session on the 22nd but to the one the next day when Kelly was present (as indicated by Tim). We see "morning 23rd" at top that tends to confirm this.

It appears to have....
"11-21-63 say two negro came (come?) in
one Jr - + short negro - ask? for lunch says cheese sandwiches + apple"

Not sure why Fritz wrote 11-21-63 but it suggests that Oswald said something to the effect that he was eating his lunch and noticed Jarman and Norman "come in". One might speculate that he may have been asked that while he was eating did he notice anyone else......

First we need to know the sequence of events and discover what all the observers recalled about the "eating lunch" alibi. From Will Fritz WC testimony we get the following.

Joseph Ball asks what Fritz tried to discover on the day of the assassination. I think this refers to the intial interrogation session in the afternoon following his capture. Makes sense for Fritz to ask him where he was. In the initial session FBI agents  Bookout and Hosty were also present.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then there is this exchange that relates to the Baker encounter in the 2nd floor lunchroom.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.

So it seems we have a confused impression during his testimony. One that he was eating his lunch with others in the lunchroom (this would be the domino room on the first floor) and yet just a minute later he was alone eating his lunch with a coke when Baker confronts him in the second floor lunchroom.

Ball asks him about the interrogation on the 23rd when Kelley was present.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BALL. And you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the time the President was shot?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, he told me about the same story about this lunch.
Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what he was eating?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me, I believe, that he had, I am doing this from memory, a cheese sandwich, and he also mentioned he had some fruit, I had forgotten about the fruit until I looked at this report.
Mr. BALL. Did he say that was in the package he had brought from home?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there was one reason I asked him about what was in the package, we had had a story that had been circulated around the meantime about some chicken bones, I am sure you heard of that, and I wanted to find for sure what he did have in his lunch and he told me about having--he told me they did not have any chicken out there and I also talked with the Paines and they told me they didn't have any chicken in the icebox, they did have some cheese.
Mr. BALL. But he said he had had lunch with Junior?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and with someone else.
Mr. BALL. Did you find out that there was an employee named Junior, a man that was nicknamed Junior at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRITZ. Probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, we had all these people checked out. I didn't do it myself probably.

It seems Ball is particularly keen to get Fritz to say that Oswald was eating his lunch with the other two. One assumes that this would be a most important detail to clarify at the time of the investigation, when Oswald was alive, and yet it appears it was not taken particularly seriously as nowhere does it appear that Jarman and Norman are asked specifically about this claim by the DPD, FBI or SS. Norman is not even questioned until the following Tuesday....48 hours after the death of the suspected assassin.

Here is Hosty's WC testimony about the alibi......

"Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building."

Nothing about eating lunch with others......seems this information was not provided on the 22nd at all. A report (CE136B page 2) written by Fritz tends to confirm this and states......
 
"I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President was shot, and he said he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor."

Nothing about Jarman and Norman at that time.

Bookout was present on the 22nd and 23rd interviews and provided the following two reports one dated the22nd and the other the 23rd. Both were dictated on November 24th.

In the first he states that Oswald got his coke from the second floor and after the confrontation with Truly and Baker went down to the first floor and ate his lunch in the lunchroom, when outside and stood around for a five or ten minutes with employees including Bill Shelley and then went home.
 
The second report, presumably referring to the interrogation that occurred on Nov 23 says;

"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten luch in the lunch room at the Texas Schoolbook Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possible one of these employees was called "junior" and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognise. He stated his lunch consisted of a cheese sandwich and an apple...."

Not the definitive account that claimed he ate with the two but what appears to be an attempt by Oswald to think of anything that might suggest he was on the first floor. Is it possible he saw them walk by the lunchroom on the way to the elevator? Of course it is.....

If Oswald did claim such an alibi on the morning of the 23rd there is no evidence it was ever followed up by the DPD, FBI or SS....all of whom were represented at that interrogation session.

[Colin Crow]

And for anyone wishing to evoke the distinct recollections of Harry Holmes who attended the final interrogation session.......we have this as an example. Was Holmes' memory as good or better than Fritz or Kelley?

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if. he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Holmes attributes a direct quote to Oswald that makes no sense to anyone who knows how those elevators operated. Neither could be "sent up". The east elevator was totally manually operated by whoever was in the elevator and the west elevator could be "called" by someone on another floor but only if both gates were closed. It was impossible for anyone to send the elevators anywhere.

[Walt Cakebread]

Let's tackle this one........

Here is a picture of the notes attributed to Fritz that relate to the alibi and Jarman and Norman.



Note the (3) in the top right. This indicates it is page 3 of his notes and likely refers not to the first interrogation session on the 22nd but to the one the next day when Kelly was present (as indicated by Tim). We see "morning 23rd" at top that tends to confirm this.

It appears to have....
"11-21-63 say two negro came (come?) in
one Jr - + short negro - ask? for lunch says cheese sandwiches + apple"

Not sure why Fritz wrote 11-21-63 but it suggests that Oswald said something to the effect that he was eating his lunch and noticed Jarman and Norman "come in". One might speculate that he may have been asked that while he was eating did he notice anyone else......

First we need to know the sequence of events and discover what all the observers recalled about the "eating lunch" alibi. From Will Fritz WC testimony we get the following.

Joseph Ball asks what Fritz tried to discover on the day of the assassination. I think this refers to the intial interrogation session in the afternoon following his capture. Makes sense for Fritz to ask him where he was. In the initial session FBI agents  Bookout and Hosty were also present.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then there is this exchange that relates to the Baker encounter in the 2nd floor lunchroom.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.

So it seems we have a confused impression during his testimony. One that he was eating his lunch with others in the lunchroom (this would be the domino room on the first floor) and yet just a minute later he was alone eating his lunch with a coke when Baker confronts him in the second floor lunchroom.

Ball asks him about the interrogation on the 23rd when Kelley was present.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. BALL. And you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the time the President was shot?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, he told me about the same story about this lunch.
Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what he was eating?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me, I believe, that he had, I am doing this from memory, a cheese sandwich, and he also mentioned he had some fruit, I had forgotten about the fruit until I looked at this report.
Mr. BALL. Did he say that was in the package he had brought from home?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there was one reason I asked him about what was in the package, we had had a story that had been circulated around the meantime about some chicken bones, I am sure you heard of that, and I wanted to find for sure what he did have in his lunch and he told me about having--he told me they did not have any chicken out there and I also talked with the Paines and they told me they didn't have any chicken in the icebox, they did have some cheese.
Mr. BALL. But he said he had had lunch with Junior?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and with someone else.
Mr. BALL. Did you find out that there was an employee named Junior, a man that was nicknamed Junior at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRITZ. Probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, we had all these people checked out. I didn't do it myself probably.

It seems Ball is particularly keen to get Fritz to say that Oswald was eating his lunch with the other two. One assumes that this would be a most important detail to clarify at the time of the investigation, when Oswald was alive, and yet it appears it was not taken particularly seriously as nowhere does it appear that Jarman and Norman are asked specifically about this claim by the DPD, FBI or SS. Norman is not even questioned until the following Tuesday....48 hours after the death of the suspected assassin.

Here is Hosty's WC testimony about the alibi......

"Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building."

Nothing about eating lunch with others......seems this information was not provided on the 22nd at all. A report (CE136B page 2) written by Fritz tends to confirm this and states......
 
"I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President was shot, and he said he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor."

Nothing about Jarman and Norman at that time.

Bookout was present on the 22nd and 23rd interviews and provided the following two reports one dated the22nd and the other the 23rd. Both were dictated on November 24th.

In the first he states that Oswald got his coke from the second floor and after the confrontation with Truly and Baker went down to the first floor and ate his lunch in the lunchroom, when outside and stood around for a five or ten minutes with employees including Bill Shelley and then went home.
 
The second report, presumably referring to the interrogation that occurred on Nov 23 says;

"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten luch in the lunch room at the Texas Schoolbook Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possible one of these employees was called "junior" and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognise. He stated his lunch consisted of a cheese sandwich and an apple...."

Not the definitive account that claimed he ate with the two but what appears to be an attempt by Oswald to think of anything that might suggest he was on the first floor. Is it possible he saw them walk by the lunchroom on the way to the elevator? Of course it is.....

If Oswald did claim such an alibi on the morning of the 23rd there is no evidence it was ever followed up by the DPD, FBI or SS....all of whom were represented at that interrogation session.

If Oswald did claim such an alibi on the morning of the 23rd there is no evidence it was ever followed up by the DPD, FBI or SS....all of whom were represented at that interrogation session.

say two negro came (come?) in
one Jr - + short negro - ask?   ..... "ASK"....  I believe that was Fritz reminding himself to ask and verify the account that Lee had related to him...

I believe you'll find that there is evidence that Captain Fritz sent at least one of his detectives over to the TSBD to "ASK" about what Lee Oswald had told him....   

although it's not spelled out in clear detail, if you read Junior Jarman's and Harold Norman's testimony you'll discern that they had been questioned by the DPD about Lee Oswald's account ( alibi) ...

I'll see if I can find the testimony in which they reveal that the DPD had asked them about their movements that day....

In the meanwhile please note that Jarman during his question before the WC on March 24, has amazing recall of an event that happened before the shooting....  How did he remember all those insignificant tiny details 4 months after the fact???

I believe the reason he was able to recall the trivia was because he'd been closely questioned about his actions just before the shooting....   The fact hat he was questioned required that he recall the event .... He was probably asked about his ( and Norman's) actions just a couple of hours after the shooting.....  And that cemented the event in his mind....

The same is true for Harold Norman...  Who did not have a high IQ.....

[Walt Cakebread]

If Oswald did claim such an alibi on the morning of the 23rd there is no evidence it was ever followed up by the DPD, FBI or SS....all of whom were represented at that interrogation session.

say two negro came (come?) in
one Jr - + short negro - ask?   ..... "ASK"....  I believe that was Fritz reminding himself to ask and verify the account that Lee had related to him...

I believe you'll find that there is evidence that Captain Fritz sent at least one of his detectives over to the TSBD to "ASK" about what Lee Oswald had told him....   

although it's not spelled out in clear detail, if you read Junior Jarman's and Harold Norman's testimony you'll discern that they had been questioned by the DPD about Lee Oswald's account ( alibi) ...

I'll see if I can find the testimony in which they reveal that the DPD had asked them about their movements that day....

In the meanwhile please note that Jarman during his question before the WC on March 24, has amazing recall of an event that happened before the shooting....  How did he remember all those insignificant tiny details 4 months after the fact???

I believe the reason he was able to recall the trivia was because he'd been closely questioned about his actions just before the shooting....   The fact hat he was questioned required that he recall the event .... He was probably asked about his ( and Norman's) actions just a couple of hours after the shooting.....  And that cemented the event in his mind....

The same is true for Harold Norman...  Who did not have a high IQ.....

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember a police officer talking to me as soon as we got down there. I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did anyone talk to you later?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. NORMAN. I guess they were Secret Service men. But I know they talked to us.
Mr. BALL. Did they take you over to the police station later?
Mr. NORMAN. No; they didn't carry me to the police station.
Mr. BALL. When did you leave the place?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere around 2 o'clock, somewhere in the vicinity of that.

[Walt Cakebread]

And for anyone wishing to evoke the distinct recollections of Harry Holmes who attended the final interrogation session.......we have this as an example. Was Holmes' memory as good or better than Fritz or Kelley?

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if. he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

Holmes attributes a direct quote to Oswald that makes no sense to anyone who knows how those elevators operated. Neither could be "sent up". The east elevator was totally manually operated by whoever was in the elevator and the west elevator could be "called" by someone on another floor but only if both gates were closed. It was impossible for anyone to send the elevators anywhere.

 It was impossible for anyone to send the elevators anywhere.

I don't attach any great significance to this....   However I do know that an elevator could be sent to a different floor  with out anybody aboard the elevator...

Some of those old elevators could be sent off to another floor by pressing a different floor number while the door was open.....Then when the door (or gate) closed the elevator would go to the floor as if someone was on the elevator and had pressed the button....