Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting

[Colin Crow]

Damn, Colin. Now you've got me thinking how I should use "think and believe". Placing too much pressure on me. When BRW reached the outside of the SN Oswald (the sniper) could have been hiding in any one of the many places afforded by the mess of boxes stacked on the sixth floor. When Oswald saw BRW leave (probably no later than 12:22 p.m.) he went into the SN. I arrived at that time based on Brennan's observation that he saw someone moving in the SN about 6 to 8 minutes before the shooting.

Brennan did not get into position that early. Already established in an exchange with Tim. You were the one who used those terms, I just provided the definitions for them.

Remember we have already established that Jarman and Norman did not leave to go to the 5th floor until the motorcade reached Main. This was from his WC testimony and is consistent with Jarman?s various estimates also. The transcript I provided has Decker call that about 12.22. Your TSBD museum time was not correct. So Williams has to be on the 6th flooruntil at least 12.24 or so.

Then again if you believe differently it will be virtually impossible for me to convince you otherwise, even when faced with proof.

You seem reluctant to address the statement I posed regarding Williams first day statement. Are you still willing to discuss and debate? It is difficult to proceed without determining where we differ in the understanding of events as the actually occurred.

[Oscar Navarro]

The limo was gone by the time the trotter trio looked out the SW window

No it was NOT!.....  From the SW corner window the three stooges could have watched the Lincoln as it proceeded North on Stemmons Freeway....

Would the limo have been within range of a sniper!

[Oscar Navarro]

I don't think I'm assuming anything about what they should have done. All I ask is were they in a position at the west windows to be spotted by an assassin in flight, who for all they knew, had reason to pop onto the fifth floor.

I can see why they wouldn't ascend to the 6th floor. That would be foolhardy. But did any one of them testify that they figured the killer had gone because the limo had left the scene? You seem to be suggesting that. And by 'splitting the scene', if you mean trotting over the the west windows on the floor right below the floor that would require the killer to pass by, I'd suggest that they were indeed still smack-dab in the middle of a clear-and-present danger, arguably a potential life-and-death situation.

The link to the 5th floor diagram and the NW corner of the 5th floor is now available in my post you replied to. From their positions in the SW corner they could not see anyone coming down the stairs

Mr. BALL - Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.
Mr. BALL - Is that the one marked Z?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr. BALL - Why?
Mr. JARMAN - Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.
Mr. BALL - They block your view?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

The three amigos couldn't be seen by a sniper coming down the stairs but I'm sure they could have been seen if the sniper decided to go into the fifth floor to do whatever you're assuming he would do and I mentioned that I was speculating so whatever I posted should be taken with that in mind. What is verifiable from their testimony is that they decided to leave the fifth floor because it wasn't safe (and I'm paraphrasing here). What's the point of all this speculation about what the three amigos did on the fifth floor and what they should have done?

[Walt Cakebread]

The link to the 5th floor diagram and the NW corner of the 5th floor is now available in my post you replied to. From their positions in the SW corner they could not see anyone coming down the stairs

Mr. BALL - Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.
Mr. BALL - Is that the one marked Z?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr. BALL - Why?
Mr. JARMAN - Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.
Mr. BALL - They block your view?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

The three amigos couldn't be seen by a sniper coming down the stairs but I'm sure they could have been seen if the sniper decided to go into the fifth floor to do whatever you're assuming he would do and I mentioned that I was speculating so whatever I posted should be taken with that in mind. What is verifiable from their testimony is that they decided to leave the fifth floor because it wasn't safe (and I'm paraphrasing here). What's the point of all this speculation about what the three amigos did on the fifth floor and what they should have done?

Mr. BALL - Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.
Mr. BALL - Is that the one marked Z?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr. BALL - Why?
Mr. JARMAN - Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.
Mr. BALL - They block your view?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

 Isn't this from the book that LBJ's  Special Blue Ribbon Cover Up committee issued to the pissants?

[Peter Kleinschmidt]

IMO, the first shot was fired z158-60 so figure out for yourself where the limo was at that point in the Hughes film where it cuts out in relation to the Z frames mentioned and you'll have your answer.

You spoke about "several witnesses" that claim to see a man with a gun in the window, but you go on to select the witnesses directly below on the 5th floor. They can not be seen in the window at this time. They only can claim to hear casings drop which is very suspect.    Amazingly, there are photos taken from inside the 5th floor of these witnesses which is obviously after their claims were made. Just that fact of pictures of them in some sort of re-enactment is misleading and does not establish anything but pure attempts to manipulate, as it apparently worked on you.

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see anything. Claiming to hear casings hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, he just figures that was what he heard. To show his problem look at the exchange he has in his testimony when asked if he indeed made such statements to Special Agent Carter. He can only admit to hearing gunfire like everyone else yet it is shown that the Special Agent Carter was stretching what Norman told him or Norman is changing his story making him a hostile witness and of little use.

Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.
Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."
Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Get your facts straight. Several witnesses and your example is one that corroborates what a 1000 other people say they heard -gunfire but to say casings falling to the floor above is something he heard, you mind as well say that Harold's the assassin.

[Oscar Navarro]

Brennan did not get into position that early. Already established in an exchange with Tim. You were the one who used those terms, I just provided the definitions for them.

Remember we have already established that Jarman and Norman did not leave to go to the 5th floor until the motorcade reached Main. This was from his WC testimony and is consistent with Jarman?s various estimates also. The transcript I provided has Decker call that about 12.22. Your TSBD museum time was not correct. So Williams has to be on the 6th flooruntil at least 12.24 or so.

Then again if you believe differently it will be virtually impossible for me to convince you otherwise, even when faced with proof.

You seem reluctant to address the statement I posed regarding Williams first day statement. Are you still willing to discuss and debate? It is difficult to proceed without determining where we differ in the understanding of events as the actually occurred.

According to Brennan's testimony he was in position by that time. So we have competing versions. I asked how could Norman know that the motorcade had reached Main St? I listened to the KLIF radio broadcast and there was no mention of the motorcade location at that time and there's no evidence there was a DPD vehicle in the vicinity of the TSBD for the crowd to have heard the dispatch. Maybe Norman imagined that he had heard a broadcast when he testified or maybe Norman heard someone in the crowd speculate the motorcade must be at Main St by now not knowing that the motorcade was running five minutes late. The fact is we don't know how Norman heard arrived at hearing the motorcade was at Main St. before he went up to the fifth floor because he wasn't asked by counsel. So what we're left with are differing accounts about the time BRW joined Jarman and Norman on the fifth floor which were not even resolved at the hearings. If you want an account that supports an earlier time period for leaving to the fifth floor let's use Harold Norman's own account to the SS on 12/4/63;

"About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the buuilding overlooking Elm Street."

As can be seen even Norman has a different recollection of the time he went up up to the fifth floor. So, which is it? I know you'll point out that BRW went with him but that was resolved during the WC testimony. Now let's look at Danny Arce's testimony;

Mr. BALL. Where did you go after that?
Mr. ARCE. I went outside.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. ARCE. With Billy Lovelady and Mr. Shelley and I was out there with Junior.
Mr. BALL. Who is Junior?
Mr. ARCE. I don't know his real name; I just know him by Junior.
Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?
Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.
Mr. BALL. What about Givens?
Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess---I mean Melvin---no, Carl, that's who he was with.

No BRW with Junior Jarman, sees Norman for a brief time.


Charles Givens testimony;

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do when you got down there on the first floor?
Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

Notice there's no mention of BRW.

Roy Truly saw what I would think were Junior, Norman and Givens. Sees all three leave but two come back. That would be Junior and Norman.

"I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed."

So, what is there to discuss and debate? You have proof from the WC testimony that BRW ate lunch on the sixth floor and then joined Norman and Jarman on the fifth floor. That is not in disputed by the testimony of Jarman and Norman. There's a discrepancy as to when Norman and Jarman went up to the fifth floor with Norman himself first providing 12:15 PM to the SS on 12/4/1963. It's clear that BRW ate lunch on the sixth floor as he left his chicken lunch, Fritos bag and Dr. Pepper bottle there. Evidence strongly suggest that BRW left part of his lunch lying on top of one of the boxes that make up the perimeter of the SN. Now we get into speculation territory.

Did BRW eat his lunch inside the SN?

Did BRW not eat his lunch outside of the SN (as he claimed in his WC testimony) but walked around while eating lunch and leave part of his lunch were some DPD cops say they found the remains of his lunch?

Did BRW peek inside the SN searching for a buddy to watch the parade go by? If he did where the heck was LHO? Did BRW see LHO?

If BRW did see LHO why the heck didn't he mention this to Junior, Harold, other co-workers and to Shelley, the DPD, the WC, anybody else for years after Oswald was dead and buried?

Look, if you want to debate and discuss BRW first day statement then let's also debate and discuss Harold Norman's 12/4/1963 statement to the SS. I think it's it's only fair.

 

[Oscar Navarro]

Mr. BALL - Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.
Mr. BALL - Is that the one marked Z?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr. BALL - Why?
Mr. JARMAN - Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.
Mr. BALL - They block your view?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

 Isn't this from the book that LBJ's  Special Blue Ribbon Cover Up committee issued to the pissants?

A much better evaluation of the facts is contained within the WR than in any of the kook books that you're so fond off, Foghorn.

[Oscar Navarro]

You spoke about "several witnesses" that claim to see a man with a gun in the window, but you go on to select the witnesses directly below on the 5th floor. They can not be seen in the window at this time. They only can claim to hear casings drop which is very suspect.  There are pictures taken after the Hughes film ends where they have their heads out the window trying to look up.  Amazingly, there are photos taken from inside the 5th floor of these witnesses which is obviously after their claims were made.

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see xxxx. Claiming to hear casing hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, he just figures that was what he heard. To show his problem look at the exchange he has in his testimony when asked if he indeed made such statements to Special Agent Carter. Hr can only admit to hearing gunfire like everyone else yet it is shown that the Special was putting words in Norman's mouth making Norman a hostile witness and of little use.

Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.
Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."
Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Get your facts straight. Several witnesses and your example is one that corroborates what a 1000 other people say they heard -gunfire but to say casings falling to the floor above  is something he heard, you mind as well say that Harold's the assassination

You spoke about "several witnesses" that claim to see a man with a gun in the window, but you go on to select the witnesses directly below on the 5th floor. They can not be seen in the window at this time. They only can claim to hear casings drop which is very suspect.  There are pictures taken after the Hughes film ends where they have their heads out the window trying to look up.  Amazingly, there are photos taken from inside the 5th floor of these witnesses which is obviously after their claims were made.

From which post did I select Brennan as you claim? In your reply #156 to my post #153 You are the one that includes Brennan. So get your facts straight. BTW, both the Dillard photo and the Hughes film show BRW and Junior Jarman on the fifth floor. The photos taken after the event are re-creations to determine the positions BRW, Jarman and Norman occupied when they were on the fifth floor. The accounts of the Norman hearing three shells dropping is confirmed by Junior Jarman and I believe also by BRW.

Face it, a reasonable person can not conclude the witnesses you offer are credible, and you said "several witnesses" and pick the ones that didn't see xxxx. Claiming to hear casing hit the 6th floor above is ridiculous. Because of Harold Norman's own testimony doesn't show any relation between the sound of gunfire and the ejected casings, he just figures that was what he heard. To show his problem look at the exchange he has in his testimony when asked if he indeed made such statements to Special Agent Carter. Hr can only admit to hearing gunfire like everyone else yet it is shown that the Special was putting words in Norman's mouth making Norman a hostile witness and of little use.

This is from Harold Norman's affidavit of 12/4/1963;

Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.

You were saying!!!