Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting

[Oscar Navarro]

Ok, they walked along the edge of the north wall of the TSBD.
 
If you knew what you were talking about and were an honest man, then You would know that Jarman and Norman could not have "walked along the edge of the north wall"  because the elevators occupied that space....  And since they walked to the WEST elevator, they had to have walked across the first floor shipping room....

So even though you took the dishonest cowards dodge, you have admitted that Jarman and Norman walked across the area where they would have been in full view of Lee Oswald....And he said that he saw them.

I'm actually agreeing with this part of your statement made in reply #214 "They passed through the first floor shipping department". The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home.

On the 23rd Oswald then changed his story to say that he ate lunch in the lunch room alone, "but recalled possibly two negro employees passing through the room during this period". This statement indicates that Oswald saw Jarman and possibly Norman passing through the lunch room, not seeing them pass along the outside wall facing Houston St. or the Houston St. dock. According to Inspector Kelley Oswald said on the 23rd that "he ate lunch with the colored boys who worked with him".

On the 24th Oswald told Inspector Holmes "when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated 'You go down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.' Before he could finish whatever he was doing , he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went downstairs".

As can be seen from the examples of Oswald's interrogations he not only gave four different versions of his lunch story but not one would place both Jarman and Norman needing to go through the lunchroom to reach the elevators to go to the fifth floor. Jarman and Norman traveled through the outside of the TSBD until they went inside the TSBD through the north back door and then went west a little ways and took the west elevator. This proves beyond an doubt that Oswald was lying and anyone who believes that Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom during the shootings is a moron.

[Ray Mitcham]

I'm actually agreeing with this part of your statement made in reply #214 "They passed through the first floor shipping department". The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home.

On the 23rd Oswald then changed his story to say that he ate lunch in the lunch room alone, "but recalled possibly two negro employees passing through the room during this period". This statement indicates that Oswald saw Jarman and possibly Norman passing through the lunch room, not seeing them pass along the outside wall facing Houston St. or the Houston St. dock. According to Inspector Kelley Oswald said on the 23rd that "he ate lunch with the colored boys who worked with him".

On the 24th Oswald told Inspector Holmes "when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated 'You go down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.' Before he could finish whatever he was doing , he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went downstairs".

As can be seen from the examples of Oswald's interrogations he not only gave four different versions of his lunch story but not one would place both Jarman and Norman needing to go through the lunchroom to reach the elevators to go to the fifth floor. Jarman and Norman traveled through the outside of the TSBD until they went inside the TSBD through the north back door and then went west a little ways and took the west elevator. This proves beyond an doubt that Oswald was lying and anyone who believes that Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom during the shootings is a moron.

Oscar, you are quoting what people say Oswald said, NOT what he actually said, so your arguments about what he said are completely debatable. How you can say "beyond a doubt" that Oswald's was lying, shows your bias.

[Oscar Navarro]

The salient point is it establishes when Brennan could begin to observe the TSBD. I gather you understand that is his significance as a witness. Don't you? He saw stuff happening.....we are establishing when he might have seen that stuff.....with some degree of accuracy using the ambulance references in the transcripts. Not his vague recollection of an estimated time. He saw a clock at 12.16pm. He also saw them pick up the man. I assume "them" refers to the ambulance staff. Unless you know of anyone else who "picked up the man". We know when that happened by cross reference to the transcripts.

As for my theory......you did well until point 1) after that you failed to summarise accurately. Sorry. Point 2 is incorrect from the information we have at hand that I explained previously.

Find out what we can agree on. Do you agree or disagree that Williams first day statement indicates he did not got back to the 6th floor but went with Jarman and Norman and "just after" they got there they saw the motorcade pass. Does this sound like around 12.25pm to you for their arrival? It was only a couple of hours since the assassination when he wrote that.

The salient point that you're trying to establish has no bearing on the outcome of events that day but I'll entertain you by producing a timeline that firmly establishes that Brennan's recollections of when he was sitting on the concrete ledge is pretty accurate. Let's begin with the time Brennan said he finished lunch;

Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President. I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm

From there he went to Houston St. and Elm St. This walk took him approximately 4 minutes.

Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?
Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they
were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up


Here's the amended portion of the DPD radio log transcript (I have omitted only the portion which  is inconsequential)


Caller:                                                                      Conversation:

289 (not assigned)                                                            Give us an ambulance, 100 N. Houston St. - epileptic seizure

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTUTTER)                  10-4

289 (not assigned)                                                      Make it code - 3 (Emergency Red Lights and Sirens)

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTUTTER)                   Be a white? (12:19)

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTATTER)                  What's your location?

606 (ambulance)                                                        About Hardwood and Cedar Springs now

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTATER)                    10-4 Code 3. (Emergency-red lights and sirens) on a signal 28 (emergency sick call) 100, N. Houston 12:20

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTATER)                    10-4, 606 (Ambulance), 12:24

Dispatcher (MC DANIEL and HUFFSTATER)                    606 (Ambulance)

606 (Ambulance)                                                         We are en route Parkland (garbled). This is a signal 16 (Investigation injured person)


By 12:24 the ambulance was already on it's way to Parkland. This falls pretty much in line with Brennan's timeline. He was sitting on the concrete ledge no later than 12:24.

What we can agree on is that BRW was not at the SN doing the shooting. Do you agree with both Givens and Danny Arce that BRW was not with them and Jarman before Jarman and Givens left?

Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?
Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.
Mr. BALL. What about Givens?
Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess---I mean Melvin---no, Carl, that's who he was with...?

Mr. BALL. What about Jack Dougherty?
Mr. ARCE. He was on all floors; I couldn't tell you where he was.
Mr. BALL. Was he outside?
Mr. ARCE. No, he was eating lunch; me and Jack Dougherty, same time.
Mr. BALL. Dougherty ate his lunch?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he go outdoors after lunch? I don't know; I didn't see him. Who went outdoors with you? Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady; Carl was out there and Charles. You stood there how long before the parade came along?
Mr. ARCE. I am not too sure; it was about 10 minutes, somewhere. around there. I am not too sure about that.


Looks like Arce and Givens had to be in on the cover up too

[Oscar Navarro]

Oscar, you are quoting what people say Oswald said, NOT what he actually said, so your arguments about what he said are completely debatable. How you can say "beyond a doubt" that Oswald's was lying, shows your bias.

These are not just random people of the street. These people were in on the interrogation. What is it that Oswald said on camera that would refute anything that has been quoted anyway?

[Walt Cakebread]

I'm actually agreeing with this part of your statement made in reply #214 "They passed through the first floor shipping department". The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home.

On the 23rd Oswald then changed his story to say that he ate lunch in the lunch room alone, "but recalled possibly two negro employees passing through the room during this period". This statement indicates that Oswald saw Jarman and possibly Norman passing through the lunch room, not seeing them pass along the outside wall facing Houston St. or the Houston St. dock. According to Inspector Kelley Oswald said on the 23rd that "he ate lunch with the colored boys who worked with him".

On the 24th Oswald told Inspector Holmes "when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated 'You go down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.' Before he could finish whatever he was doing , he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went downstairs".

As can be seen from the examples of Oswald's interrogations he not only gave four different versions of his lunch story but not one would place both Jarman and Norman needing to go through the lunchroom to reach the elevators to go to the fifth floor. Jarman and Norman traveled through the outside of the TSBD until they went inside the TSBD through the north back door and then went west a little ways and took the west elevator. This proves beyond an doubt that Oswald was lying and anyone who believes that Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom during the shootings is a moron.

The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald.

HUH??    So you acknowledge that "Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside" and that's absolutely correct.   But then you say "it wasn't Oswald" ( who saw them walk by) .....    I think it's important to remind you that it was Lee Oswald who was being interrogated, and he told the interrogators that he saw "Junior", ( Junior Jarman) and a little short Negro, ( Harold Norman) walk through the room ( meaning the shipping room) as he sat there in the 1st floor lunchroom, at about the time the parade passed by the TSBD.

When the police questioned Jarman and Norman, they asked them if they had walked through the room at about the time the parade passed by the TSBD, and they said that they had walked through the shipping room a few minutes BEFORE the parade arrived.   They knew that they had arrived on the fifth floor just a couple of minutes before the Parade arrived, and they knew that they had departed from the front of the TSBD at about 12:25.   Which means they passed by the first floor lunchroom about 12:26 / 12:27.    And Lee was there to see them walk by......He was NOT on the sixth floor. 

[Oscar Navarro]

The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald.

HUH??    So you acknowledge that "Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside" and that's absolutely correct.   But then you say "it wasn't Oswald" ( who saw them walk by) .....    I think it's important to remind you that it was Lee Oswald who was being interrogated, and he told the interrogators that he saw "Junior", ( Junior Jarman) and a little short Negro, ( Harold Norman) walk through the room ( meaning the shipping room) as he sat there in the 1st floor lunchroom, at about the time the parade passed by the TSBD.

When the police questioned Jarman and Norman they asked them if they had walked through the room at about the time the parade passed by the TSBD, they said that they had walked through the shipping room a few minutes BEFORE the parade arrived.   They knew that they had arrived on the fifth floor just a couple of minutes before the Parade arrived, and they knew that they had departed from the front of the TSBD at about 12:25.   Which means they passed by the first floor lunchroom about 12:26 / 12:27.    And Lee was there to see them walk by......He was NOT on the sixth floor.

"Meaning the shipping room"? Where do you get that from!!! In one of the four versions of the lunch episode Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room were he was supposed to be eating his non-existent lunch. BTW, for the third time I'll ask when did Jarman ever say he heard a motorcycle radio announce the parade was passing by Main St.?

[Walt Cakebread]

"Meaning the shipping room"? Where do you get that from!!! In one of the four versions of the lunch episode Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room were he was supposed to be eating his non-existent lunch. BTW, for the third time I'll ask when did Jarman ever say he heard a motorcycle radio announce the parade was passing by Main St.?

In one of the four versions of the lunch episode Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room were he was supposed to be eating his non-existent lunch.

In one of the four versions of the lunch episode Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room were he was supposed to be eating his non-existent lunch. BTW, for the third time I'll ask when did Jarman ever say he heard a motorcycle radio announce the parade was passing by Main St.?

Lee didn't give  FOUR VERSIONS...There were four INTERPRETATIONS of what he said, by men who had never been in the TSBD and didn't know what he was saying. 

Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room

Anybody who had been inside the TSBD through the north entrance, off the loading dock, would have known that Lee was not referring to walking through the Domino Room, ( which is impossible)  Only a liar or screwball would attempt to argue that Lee told them that he saw Junior and Hank as they walked through the Domino Room.

[Oscar Navarro]

In one of the four versions of the lunch episode Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room were he was supposed to be eating his non-existent lunch.

In one of the four versions of the lunch episode Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room were he was supposed to be eating his non-existent lunch. BTW, for the third time I'll ask when did Jarman ever say he heard a motorcycle radio announce the parade was passing by Main St.?

Lee didn't give  FOUR VERSIONS...There were four INTERPRETATIONS of what he said, by men who had never been in the TSBD and didn't know what he was saying. 

Oswald said passing "through the room" meaning through the Domino room

Anybody who had been inside the TSBD through the north entrance, off the loading dock, would have known that Lee was not referring to walking through the Domino Room, ( which is impossible)  Only a liar or screwball would attempt to argue that Lee told them that he saw Junior and Hank as they walked through the Domino Room.

The above is an interpretation of someone who was not even present at the interrogations and who has no idea what was discussed during the interrogations and can only base what was said in those interrogations on the reports filed by those present during the interrogations and/or doing the interrogating. BTW, not that it matters since your commie buddy Oswald was NOT in the Domino Room but a person can go through a doorway and come out the same doorway. But that is just semantics considering that Oswald was talking about eating lunch alone IN THE LUNCHROOM when he allegedly saw "the two colored boys" pass through THE ROOM. Only a complete nincompoop would consider the small open area between the north door and the elevators A ROOM.