Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting

[Oscar Navarro]

Since when is seeing "movement" evidence of anything?

Brennan does not belong in category A.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.
Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.

Besides Brennan never said how he knew the guy in position for the final shot (and thus blocked by boxes) was the same guy he saw earlier sitting on the window sill.  Perhaps he just assumed it.  He also never explained how how could see the guy from the belt up at the time of the last shot.

Brennan embellished his story more and more every time he told it.  Have you read his book?

Only Euins actually claimed to see a person firing a rifle, and the person he saw had a bald spot.  He also told one reporter that it was a "colored man".

Mr. BELIN. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw him this last time?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher on the Houston side.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you. What kind of a gun did you see in that window?
Mr. BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe, some type of a high-powered rifle.....

Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.
Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it?
Mr. BRENNAN. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know down what street it was pointing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses...??..

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 481. I wonder if you would mark that with the letter "A"--if you would circle that window. And could you put an "A" on that, if you would.
Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high do you believe it was open?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just like this.
Mr. BELIN. Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is right..........


The man sees Oswald with a gun taking aim, hears the shot, sees Oswald take the last shot and slowly retrieve the rifle, says that he could identify Oswald and as proof he identified both Jarman and Norman when they came down from the fifth floor and we're somehow supposed to doubt his testimony because Brennan tells McCloy that he didn't actually see the gun discharge. Category A all the way.

[Peter Kleinschmidt]

The above is an interpretation of someone who was not even present at the interrogations and who has no idea what was discussed during the interrogations and can only base what was said in those interrogations on the reports filed by those present during the interrogations and/or doing the interrogating. BTW, not that it matters since your commie buddy Oswald was NOT in the Domino Room but a person can go through a doorway and come out the same doorway. But that is just semantics considering that Oswald was talking about eating lunch alone IN THE LUNCHROOM when he allegedly saw "the two colored boys" pass through THE ROOM. Only a complete nincompoop would consider the small open area between the north door and the elevators A ROOM.

Oscar, let's talk about interrogations.

What do you consider to be an interrogation?
How many human beings were interrogated related to the death of JFK?
Were any tape-recorded?
Were there notes taken and saved?
Were you surprised by any person who sat in an interrogation, since you were present, right?

I noticed you suggested Oswald was Walt's "commie buddy".

Since you believe Oswald was a commie, fair enough, but the government can give you a story of how they knew who LHO was except for a few hours November 22.
Some of the most paranoid people pushing the communist threat happen to distance themselves from LHO for a few hours you are first in line to agree.

[Oscar Navarro]

This should give you a flavor of how much Holmes was paying attention to what was being said during that interrogation:

"But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke."

So Holmes entire report should then be discarded. 

[Oscar Navarro]

Speaking of "resorting to insults"...

When I'm insulted I will answer in kind.

[Colin Crow]

According to their WC testimony BRW did not go up with Jarman and Norman to the fifth floor. It was during their WC testimony that many things were cleared up, previous statements they were alleged to have made corrected and the truth of the events more or less arrived at. It was a shame that Norman's and Jarman's times were not addressed as they did not correlate with BRW's but I don't believe any of these guys were trying to hide anything and WC counsel were not trying to cover up anything. I've already said this much before so that should cover whatever it was that BRW put down on the 22nd.

Now, since you are supposedly interested in debating and discussing, why don't you address what I have brought up in previous posts.

What have I not addressed? I found the primary source transcript that has a call of Main by Decker at 12.22. Yet you persist to use the 6th floor museum time of 12.21 with no reference listed. I showed that Brennan watched them remove Belknap at about 12.24. He claimed to have done this while standing. You simply dismissed this and used Brennan?s rough estimate to put him on the wall at 12.22.

Since you seem to know and believe all significant events of the day, tell me how many men Brennan described seeing on the 5th floor and who they were?

Tell me why Williams said nothing about his lunch trip to the 6th floor in his first statement. Why did he lie and say he went up with Jarman and Norman? Why did they support this initial lie for all statements until Ball and Brennan went to Dallas in March 64 to "tidy things up".

Your belief of events is not based on contemporary statements but a concoction developed by lawyers with the LN filter strongly applied. It does not even stand up to the actual statements provided by key witnesses and the irony is that the Ball/Belin fantasy explaining Williams movements did not even survive to make the Warren Report.

[Zeon Mason]

 
The fact that Norman and Jarman have to be AT their wndows when they are 1st seen by Bonnie Ray Williams when BRW returns to 5th floor using West Elevator, and BRW not seeing them, unitl he walks across the 5th floor to the south side of the floor, means the shooter or person holding a rifle, in the SE window 6th floor, cannot have started moving and stacking boxes unitl AFTER Norman is at the 5th floor window, right underneath the shooter as the shooter is doing this activity.

Norman heard NOTHING of this activity right above his head. Yet 3 shots from a riflle  caused dust or debris to fall thru the crack in the floor onto the top of BRW head. A moving human weighing  at least 130lbs and carrying and stacking 20lb or heavier boxes, however, caused NO dust falling, NO noise, And if Arnold Rowland ovservation of man leaning out the SE 6h story window is correct, then the window HAD to be open MORE than 15 inches at that time. Who readjusted the window from nearly full open (per Rowland observation), to the 15" open or 1/4th open approx?


BRW has no WC testimony of having adjusted the window or even being AT that SN window. So the shooter had to have adusted the window, and that sliding of the window downward, also made NO NOISE apparently, or else Norman rght below, was temporarily not able to hear such noise.

I guess this is why its just a lot easier to dismiss Arnold Rowlands WC testimony as "exaggeration" because otherwise, you have to epxlain that Norman has only very selective hearing, and that dust doesnt fall from wieight applied on a floor, but does fall from a sound blast that is less force acting on a floor than the weight of the human moving on top of it does.

[Peter Kleinschmidt]

I'm actually agreeing with this part of your statement made in reply #214 "They passed through the first floor shipping department". The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home.

On the 23rd Oswald then changed his story to say that he ate lunch in the lunch room alone, "but recalled possibly two negro employees passing through the room during this period". This statement indicates that Oswald saw Jarman and possibly Norman passing through the lunch room, not seeing them pass along the outside wall facing Houston St. or the Houston St. dock. According to Inspector Kelley Oswald said on the 23rd that "he ate lunch with the colored boys who worked with him".

On the 24th Oswald told Inspector Holmes "when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated 'You go down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.' Before he could finish whatever he was doing , he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went downstairs".

As can be seen from the examples of Oswald's interrogations he not only gave four different versions of his lunch story but not one would place both Jarman and Norman needing to go through the lunchroom to reach the elevators to go to the fifth floor. Jarman and Norman traveled through the outside of the TSBD until they went inside the TSBD through the north back door and then went west a little ways and took the west elevator. This proves beyond an doubt that Oswald was lying and anyone who believes that Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom during the shootings is a moron.

"The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home"[

How in the world do give weight to 100% second-hand information, when there is no document which speaks to his specific location at the time of the shooting?
How is it that you love to use Harold Norman to corroborate anything? Right below is McCloy asking Norman about time-

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the first floor where the police officers were? Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?
Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes. From the time you first heard the shot and saw what was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end of the building and then as I understand your testimony, you left there and went down to the did you go down to the fourth floor first or did you go all the way down?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe we went all the way.
Mr. McCLOY. Until you got down to the first floor, how much would you say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you got down on the first floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere between 10 or 15 minutes, somewhere like that.


10 to 15 minutes? How long did he hear a weapon being fired, 3 or 4 minutes??? Maybe a minute per round??
Why does this fool answer every question with a question?

Mr. McCloy.  Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?
Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?

No Norman, to come down to 1st floor from the basement. What a reliable witness

[Ray Mitcham]

According to their WC testimony BRW did not go up with Jarman and Norman to the fifth floor. It was during their WC testimony that many things were cleared up, previous statements they were alleged to have made corrected and the truth of the events more or less arrived at. It was a shame that Norman's and Jarman's times were not addressed as they did not correlate with BRW's but I don't believe any of these guys were trying to hide anything and WC counsel were not trying to cover up anything. I've already said this much before so that should cover whatever it was that BRW put down on the 22nd.

"It was during their WC testimony that many things were cleared up, previous statements they were alleged to have made corrected "

Of course they were they had to have been to make the story stick.