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Author Topic: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?  (Read 97888 times)

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #400 on: February 06, 2020, 06:54:20 PM »
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  It is a tourist card. Steve Galbraith called it a visa and that slipped by me. One researcher [David Joesephs] made a big deal about the name with the comma after Lee.
It is no big deal.
The tourist card was likely required if someone was going into Mexico using public transportation.


Great. Then do you retract your prior claim that an impersonator obtained a passport and visa because a lazyand cheap Oswald didn't need those documents to enter Mexico?  And they did this to establish a paper trail?  That contains a false premise. Oswald did need them.  The passport was required for his desired trip to Cuba and the "visa" was actually an immigration form he had to fill out to enter Mexico.   Thus both document were necessary for his intended purpose of going to Mexico to obtain permission to travel to Cuba.

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #400 on: February 06, 2020, 06:54:20 PM »


Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #401 on: February 06, 2020, 07:28:10 PM »
Great. Then do you retract your prior claim that an impersonator obtained a passport and visa because a lazyand cheap Oswald didn't need those documents to enter Mexico?  And they did this to establish a paper trail?  That contains a false premise. Oswald did need them.  The passport was required for his desired trip to Cuba and the "visa" was actually an immigration form he had to fill out to enter Mexico.   Thus both document were necessary for his intended purpose of going to Mexico to obtain permission to travel to Cuba.
From Posner's "Case Closed":
"On Wednesday [October 2], at 8:30 a.m., he [Oswald] left on bus No. 332. Other passengers recall that at the border crossing, he was pulled off and questioned about his Mexican tourist papers, because initially the border guards thought his fifteen-day visa had expired. It was over fifteen days since the visa was issued, but Oswald showed them his entry stamp to prove he had not been in Mexico past the prescribed time. When it was resolved and he returned to the bus, other passengers heard him grumbling about the bureaucrats at the border. "

Posner refers to the document that I linked to as "tourist papers" and a "visa" (I don't believe Oswald had both; why would he need two of them?). I'll guess it went by both names? In any case, Oswald likely knew he would have to show authorities something allowing him in Mexico if he was stopped. I'll guess again - although it's not clear - that Mexican authorities checked everyone's visas/tourist cards as they left. Not just Oswald's.

Source: FBI interviews with passengers Mr. and Mrs. Juan de Cuba and Eulalio Rodriguez-Chavez
link: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0322a.htm
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 07:34:43 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #402 on: February 06, 2020, 07:46:23 PM »
From Posner's "Case Closed":
"On Wednesday [October 2], at 8:30 a.m., he [Oswald] left on bus No. 332. Other passengers recall that at the border crossing, he was pulled off and questioned about his Mexican tourist papers, because initially the border guards thought his fifteen-day visa had expired. It was over fifteen days since the visa was issued, but Oswald showed them his entry stamp to prove he had not been in Mexico past the prescribed time. When it was resolved and he returned to the bus, other passengers heard him grumbling about the bureaucrats at the border. "

Posner refers to the document that I linked to as "tourist papers" and a "visa" (I don't believe Oswald had both; why would he need two of them?). I'll guess it went by both names? In any case, Oswald likely knew he would have to show authorities something allowing him in Mexico if he was stopped. I'll guess again - although it's not clear - that Mexican authorities checked everyone's visas/tourist cards as they left. Not just Oswald's.

Source: FBI interviews with passengers Mr. and Mrs. Juan de Cuba and Eulalio Rodriguez-Chavez
link: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0322a.htm

They are slightly different but it is not unusual for them to be confused.  I was just taking issue with Jerry's claim that the "visa" was unnecessary for the trip to Mexico.  He argued that because Oswald was lazy and cheap that he would not have gone to the trouble of obtaining it or a passport and therefore this is evidence of an impersonator establishing a paper trail.  Of course Oswald needed a passport to get to Cuba which was the whole point of his Mexico trip.  Obtaining a passport had nothing to do with Mexico.  And the "visa" which was actually a "tourist card" was necessary for him to gain entry to Mexico.  Thus, both documents were necessary for him to achieve his objective and were not superfluous evidence of someone establishing a paper trail on his behalf.

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #402 on: February 06, 2020, 07:46:23 PM »


Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #403 on: February 06, 2020, 07:55:30 PM »
They are slightly different but it is not unusual for them to be confused.  I was just taking issue with Jerry's claim that the "visa" was unnecessary for the trip to Mexico.  He argued that because Oswald was lazy and cheap that he would not have gone to the trouble of obtaining it or a passport and therefore this is evidence of an impersonator establishing a paper trail.  Of course Oswald needed a passport to get to Cuba which was the whole point of his Mexico trip.  Obtaining a passport had nothing to do with Mexico.  And the "visa" which was actually a "tourist card" was necessary for him to gain entry to Mexico.  Thus, both documents were necessary for him to achieve his objective and were not superfluous evidence of someone establishing a paper trail on his behalf.
We see this evidence - eyewitness accounts, physical evidence, circumstantial evidence - as proof or at least powerful evidence that he did go to Mexico City.

A conspiracist, with a conspiracy mindset, sees the exact same evidence as proof that he didn't go, that it was an impostor. Because it's all faked.

That, in brief, is the gulf between the two sides. We say up is up and down is down; they say, as Garrison said you had to see things, up is down and down is up.

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #404 on: February 06, 2020, 09:52:27 PM »
Great. Then do you retract your prior claim that an impersonator obtained a passport and visa because a lazyand cheap Oswald didn't need those documents to enter Mexico?  And they did this to establish a paper trail?  That contains a false premise. Oswald did need them.  The passport was required for his desired trip to Cuba and the "visa" was actually an immigration form he had to fill out to enter Mexico.   Thus both document were necessary for his intended purpose of going to Mexico to obtain permission to travel to Cuba.
I think it is possible that there was an impersonator...so did the FBI.
We see this evidence .... circumstantial evidence ...
A conspiracist, with a conspiracy mindset ...
"circumstantial evidence"--- If not an outright lie...all the evidence was circumstantial.
I am not a "conspiracy theorist". There is no such word as "conspiracist".

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #404 on: February 06, 2020, 09:52:27 PM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #405 on: February 06, 2020, 10:34:13 PM »
If you open up CE 1781..  https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/pdf/WH23_CE_1781.pdf
Look at the bottom-- 549 up to 550 You will see that Marina stated that she learned about Oswald's trip to Mexico on TV. [See--her English was better than she let on]
Mrs Oswald said that she did NOT know anything about a trip to Mexico City.
Again CE 1792 Look at the bottom left of 319 up 3 paragraphs... "Asked if she had any knowledge of Lee's trips to Mexico..."
She replied in the negative --
  https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/pdf/WH23_CE_1792.pdf
Come testimony time though, she was ready to play ball.

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #406 on: February 06, 2020, 10:58:49 PM »
I think it is possible that there was an impersonator...so did the FBI.

Yes, I know what you believe but it was based on the false premise that Oswald didn't need to obtain a passport or "visa" for his trip to Mexico.  He needed a passport to get to Cuba.  That was his objective in going to Mexico.  He didn't obtain a visa but turned in an immigration form like everyone else who went to Mexico.  He had to do that to get to Mexico City.  So it is demonstrably false that these documents were not necessary and were obtained by your fantasy impersonator solely to create a paper trail.

"Why would Oswald [who seemed cheap and apparently lazy in every other way] bother to get a visa some 10 days before he actually was supposed to have left?
I suggest that this visa was obtained by an impersonator who had the necessary credentials with the sole and solitary intent of establishing a paper trail that led straight to Oswald/Cuba."

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #407 on: February 06, 2020, 11:15:48 PM »
Quote
I think it is possible that there was an impersonator...so did the FBI.
Yes, I know what you believe ....
It is not a case of what I 'believe'. Even J E Hoover thought it might be so. Go see him about it :-\
Review my reply #409 and respond to that one. Your lovely angel Marina lied...plain and simple.

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Re: Did Oswald Go To Mexico City?
« Reply #407 on: February 06, 2020, 11:15:48 PM »