When did Jarman and Norman go to the 5th floor?

[Colin Crow]

Jarman's WC Testimony

Mr. BALL - Where did you stand?
Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
Mr. BALL - Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the Book Depository?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.
Mr. BALL - What about Mr. Truly?
Mr. JARMAN - He wasn't standing close to me.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was he with?
Mr. JARMAN. He was with the Vice President of the company.
Mr. BALL - What is his name?
Mr. JARMAN - O. V. Campbell.
Mr. BALL - Where were they standing?
Mr. JARMAN - They were standing at the corner of the building in front of the mail boxes.


 Jarman met up with Norman on the way outside. They were with Givens and Arce and standing west of the steps on the sidewalk.  He noticed Truly and Campbell east of the steps. When asked about Lovelady, he remembered him (they) came out later. Was he referring to Shelley as well?

Representative FORD - You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.
Representative FORD - But in front of the building?
Mr. JARMAN - In front of the building.
Representative FORD - Then you said you went around the building.
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.
Representative FORD - Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?
Mr. JARMAN - Right here.
Representative FORD - In which direction did you go then?
Mr. JARMAN - This way.
Representative FORD - You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Right, sir.


He estimates the time was 12.25-12.28 when they arrived at the 5th floor windows, just minutes before the shots.

[Colin Crow]

Harold Norman's WC Testiomony

Mr. BALL. You went out the front door, did you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That is the Elm Street?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?
Mr. NORMAN. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. On the sidewalk?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. We didn't go any further than that point.
Mr. BALL. What time was it that you went out there?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say, I don't know exactly, around 12 or 12:10, something like that.
Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember it was Danny Arce.
Mr. BALL. And who else?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.



A timeline of the Presidential Motorcade with times indicated taken from Dallas Police Radio logs added.

The Motorcade got to Main about 12.24pm. Jarman estimated the time they left the front of the TSBD to be 12.20-12.25.  They walked approximately 200 ft to the west elevator and about 160 ft to the SE corner of the 6th floor. This would take about a minute at 6ft per sec walking speed. The elevator took about 30 seconds to reach the 5th floor. They could have been in position on the fifth floor about 2 minutes after departing the front steps and may have been in position around 12.25 or slightly later depending on the accuracy of the broadcast.

[Colin Crow]

Some confirmation from Roy Truly.....

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.

And Givens

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do when you got down there on the first floor?
Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

[Walt Cakebread]

Jarman's WC Testimony

Mr. BALL - Where did you stand?
Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.
Mr. BALL - Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the Book Depository?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.
Mr. BALL - What about Mr. Truly?
Mr. JARMAN - He wasn't standing close to me.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was he with?
Mr. JARMAN. He was with the Vice President of the company.
Mr. BALL - What is his name?
Mr. JARMAN - O. V. Campbell.
Mr. BALL - Where were they standing?
Mr. JARMAN - They were standing at the corner of the building in front of the mail boxes.


 Jarman met up with Norman on the way outside. They were with Givens and Arce and standing west of the steps on the sidewalk.  He noticed Truly and Campbell east of the steps. When asked about Lovelady, he remembered him (they) came out later. Was he referring to Shelley as well?

Representative FORD - You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.
Representative FORD - But in front of the building?
Mr. JARMAN - In front of the building.
Representative FORD - Then you said you went around the building.
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?
Mr. JARMAN - I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.
Representative FORD - Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?
Mr. JARMAN - Right here.
Representative FORD - In which direction did you go then?
Mr. JARMAN - This way.
Representative FORD - You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Right, sir.


He estimates the time was 12.25-12.28 when they arrived at the 5th floor windows, just minutes before the shots.

I use the time of 12:27 as the time that Lee Oswald saw them come in ......If Lee was on the first floor and observed Jarman and Norman come into the first floor shipping room as he told Fritz, then he could not have been the man in the light colored khaki clothing that witnesses on he street saw at the sixth floor window at that same time.

And HOW could Lee describe Jarman and Norman entering the building if he wasn't there

[Colin Crow]

We will never know the exact time they reentered the TSBD but the important fact was that it was at a time that was close to the scheduled time for the motorcade to pass. Well after Arnold Rowland saw a man with a rifle in the SW window of the 6th floor. Certainly it is interesting that Oswald should single out those two in particular during interrogation. From memory one of those present claimed Oswald said they "passed through" the domino room. A perculiar expression to use for a room with only one entrance. Perhaps it was "passed by" instead.

[Walt Cakebread]

We will never know the exact time they reentered the TSBD but the important fact was that it was at a time that was close to the scheduled time for the motorcade to pass. Well after Arnold Rowland saw a man with a rifle in the SW window of the 6th floor. Certainly it is interesting that Oswald should single out those two in particular during interrogation. From memory one of those present claimed Oswald said they "passed through" the domino room. A perculiar expression to use for a room with only one entrance. Perhaps it was "passed by" instead.

None of the interrogators were familiar with the layout of the TSBD at the time Lee was being interrogated.  Even at the time they wrote their reports they didn't know things like you've pointed out...that there was no portal that allowed  a person to enter the Domino room from outside.   Thus they were confused about what Lee told them.....and therefore wrote inaccurate reports.

[Colin Crow]

The fact that there is not consistency of detail provided by those that were present may well have been contributed largely because of ignorance of the layout.

Does it not seem bizarre that an accused would try to claim an alibi of having lunch with individuals if it did not happen? They would simply deny it ever occurred and the lie add weight to the guilt of the accused.

However if they were noticed either passing by the northern window of the domino room or heading away from the domino room to the west elevator it would be worth mentioning during interrogation to establish presence away from the SN at that time.

[Walt Cakebread]

The fact that there is not consistency of detail provided by those that were present may well have been contributed largely because of ignorance of the layout.

Does it not seem bizarre that an accused would try to claim an alibi of having lunch with individuals if it did not happen? They would simply deny it ever occurred and the lie add weight to the guilt of the accused.

However if they were noticed either passing by the northern window of the domino room or heading away from the domino room to the west elevator it would be worth mentioning during interrogation to establish presence away from the SN at that time.

Does it not seem bizarre that an accused would try to claim an alibi of having lunch with individuals if it did not happen? They would simply deny it ever occurred and the lie add weight to the guilt of the accused.

Indeed it would be utterly stupid for the accused (Lee Oswald)  to claim that he had companions eating lunch with him at 12:27.

Lee Oswald wasn't stupid..... He wouldn't have told the interrogators such a stupid lie.....They simply misunderstood what he told them or deliberately misconstrued what he told them.   

However if they were noticed  (by LHO) either passing by the northern window of the domino room or heading away from the domino room to the west elevator it would be worth mentioning during interrogation to establish presence away from the SN at that time.

Yes...And in fact that is exactly what Lee did.....  Unfortunately he never realized that he was talking to one of the key conspirators who would twist his statements.