When did Jarman and Norman go to the 5th floor?

[John Iacoletti]

We're talking about what Oswald said.

Were not talking about what Oswald said without regard to the EVENT he was talking about.....

He said that he saw Jarman and Norman come in......

It's true that HE didn't know them by name.... but we do.....

You don't get to take what Norman and Jarman said they did and pretend that Oswald said that he saw that.  Sorry, that's just a fabrication.  All we know is that he said something about seeing Norman and Jarman at some unspecified time and place.


Fritz's notes:  "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."

Fritz's report: "he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."

Bookhout's report: "recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period."

Kelley's report: "He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy."

You're basing your entire fabrication on cherry-picking your interpretation of Fritz's "came in" note and ignoring everything else.  Norman and Jarman didn't say they had lunch with Oswald, nor did they "walk through" the domino room at 12:27.  It's not even very plausible that someone sitting in the domino room would have seen them come in the loading dock door and walk to the elevators because of the sight lines.

[Walt Cakebread]

You don't get to take what Norman and Jarman said they did and pretend that Oswald said that he saw that.  Sorry, that's just a fabrication.  All we know is that he said something about seeing Norman and Jarman at some unspecified time and place.


Fritz's notes:  "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."

Fritz's report: "he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."

Bookhout's report: "recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period."

Kelley's report: "He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy."

You're basing your entire fabrication on cherry-picking your interpretation of Fritz's "came in" note and ignoring everything else.  Norman and Jarman didn't say they had lunch with Oswald, nor did they "walk through" the domino room at 12:27.  It's not even very plausible that someone sitting in the domino room would have seen them come in the loading dock door and walk to the elevators because of the sight lines.

Fritz's report: "he said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called "Junior" and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."

But this is NOT what his note says......Fritz's notes:  "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."

[Colin Crow]

To John and Walt. Perhaps we can find what we can agree on. During interrogation Oswald mentioned an awareness of Jarman and Norman associated in some way with the lunch room. Would that satisfy?

[Bob Prudhomme]

I have mistakenly assumed, over the years, that the Domino Room, if that is what we are referring to as the "lunch room", was more centrally located; and that it had a door going into it and another door leading out of it (or vice versa). However, I see from the floor plan that I was mistaken, and that it is in a corner with only one door into it.

If Jarman and Norman were entering the rear of the TSBD for the purpose of going up to the 5th floor, just before the motorcade arrived, why would they take a detour into the Domino Room?

[Colin Crow]

Too bad BALL gave up on DOUGHERTY...

Mr. BALL - What time do you usually go to lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, usually about 12 o'clock or 12 noon.
Mr. BALL - Do you carry your lunch most of the time from home?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And where do you usually eat your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, they have got what they call a domino room in there and I usually eat it in there.
Mr. BALL - You usually eat your lunch in the domino room?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And how long do you take for lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, from 12 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL - Forty-five minutes?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you always take a full hour?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I usually do.

Well, almost, so who did he lunch with that day?

Mr. BALL. Did you have lunch?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. ARCE. In that little domino room there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go after that?
Mr. ARCE. I went outside.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. ARCE. With Billy Lovelady and Mr. Shelley and I was out there with Junior.
Mr. BALL. Who is Junior?
Mr. ARCE. I don't know his real name; I just know him by Junior.
Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?
Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.
Mr. BALL. What about Givens?
Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess---I mean Melvin---no, Carl, that's who he was with.
Mr. BALL. What about Jack Dougherty?
Mr. ARCE. He was on all floors; I couldn't tell you where he was.
Mr. BALL. Was he outside?
Mr. ARCE No, he was eating lunch; me and Jack Dougherty, same timei.
Mr. BALL. Dougherty ate his lunch?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

[Colin Crow]

As there has been no meaningful challenge to the original estimate I would consider this question answered.

All available evidence indicates that Jarman and Norman arrived on the 5th floor some time shortly after 12.25pm.

DVP can use this to update his website.

Perhaps we can move to the next question.

[Michael O'Brian]

As there has been no meaningful challenge to the original estimate I would consider this question answered.

All available evidence indicates that Jarman and Norman arrived on the 5th floor some time shortly after 12.25pm.

DVP can use this to update his website.

Perhaps we can move to the next question.

Would they have needed permission from Truly to go back inside before the motorcade arrived? I think he ordered everyone outside to watch the President pass

[Walt Cakebread]

As there has been no meaningful challenge to the original estimate I would consider this question answered.

All available evidence indicates that Jarman and Norman arrived on the 5th floor some time shortly after 12.25pm.

DVP can use this to update his website.

Perhaps we can move to the next question.

All available evidence indicates that Jarman and Norman arrived on the 5th floor some time shortly after 12.25pm.

Yes....And Lee Oswald said that he was on the first floor and he saw them "come in" as they traveled to the fifth floor.

At the time witnesses were watching a man in light colored khaki clothing behind a sixth floor window.   Bonnie Ray Williams claimed that he was on the sixth floor near that SE corner window at the time.  Williams had to have seen the man in the khaki uniform......