Lack Of Damage To CE-399

[Andrew Mason]

Andrew can explain whatever it is he can explain, maybe how an unimpeded round struck JBC's leg but only went in an inch or whatever is the current thought.

Whether a first shot could have missed is not the point.  The evidence is very consistent that it did not miss.  This was implicitly accepted by the WC and their counsel so it is not an outrageous conclusion from the evidence, despite what SBTers would like to suggest. 

As far as the first shot striking JBC in the thigh, I am not an expert so I can only say what appears from the evidence.   The conclusion that the first shot struck JBC in the left thigh but not in the back or wrist is based on the following:
1. the trajectory through JFK's neck goes right to left and appears to pass just to left of JBC's midline
2. the bullet passed through at least 5 layers of clothing (jacket, lining shirt, doubled shirt in front),  and struck the underside of JFK's tie on exiting.  It also passed through 2 layers of skin and several inches of strap muscle.  How much all that caused the bullet to slow is not really known. It is estimated based on some tests but those tests obviously did not duplicate the path exactly and used some assumptions about the stopping power of the above.
3. the bullet then likely tumbled end over end in travelling toward JBC. 
4. the wound characteristics of the thigh wound fit a 6.5 mm missile striking at an angle butt-first and penetrating about an inch and a half to the femur.  There was evidence that a fragment of lead was embedded in the femur at the end of the bullet path. All of this fits with the known characteristics of CE399.
5. the wound characteristics of the wrist wound fit an irregular shaped missile striking the radius with enough force to shatter it into several pieces but not destroy it.  It also sent a spray of lead flakes into the wound.  These characteristics led Dr. Gregory to say that it was likely caused by the same bullet that exited the chest but that it was not likely caused by CE399.  Since the bullet struck but did not penetrate the radius, it is difficult to understand how much of the bullet would not have deflected away from the point of contact, although it is possible that a fragment could have gone through the wrist.  The thin laceration of the skin on the palm side of the wrist could have been made by a bullet fragment or possibly a bone fragment.
6. the only evidence of fragments flying up from the rear compartment came on the second shot (Tague and Greer).
7. it is extremely difficult to conceive of CE399 passing through  JFK, JBC's chest, taking out 10 cm of rib, smashing the radius, making a tiny exit laceration in the palm side of the wrist and then (with no apparent cause) deflecting left ward to the left thigh with enough energy to penetrate the thigh to a depth of about 1.5 inches.
8. JBC said he never felt the thigh wound and never felt pain from any of his wounds.

[Jack Nessan]

Whether a first shot could have missed is not the point.  The evidence is very consistent that it did not miss.  This was implicitly accepted by the WC and their counsel so it is not an outrageous conclusion from the evidence, despite what SBTers would like to suggest. 

As far as the first shot striking JBC in the thigh, I am not an expert so I can only say what appears from the evidence.   The conclusion that the first shot struck JBC in the left thigh but not in the back or wrist is based on the following:
1. the trajectory through JFK's neck goes right to left and appears to pass just to left of JBC's midline
2. the bullet passed through at least 5 layers of clothing (jacket, lining shirt, doubled shirt in front),  and struck the underside of JFK's tie on exiting.  It also passed through 2 layers of skin and several inches of strap muscle.  How much all that caused the bullet to slow is not really known. It is estimated based on some tests but those tests obviously did not duplicate the path exactly and used some assumptions about the stopping power of the above.
3. the bullet then likely tumbled end over end in travelling toward JBC. 
4. the wound characteristics of the thigh wound fit a 6.5 mm missile striking at an angle butt-first and penetrating about an inch and a half to the femur.  There was evidence that a fragment of lead was embedded in the femur at the end of the bullet path. All of this fits with the known characteristics of CE399.
5. the wound characteristics of the wrist wound fit an irregular shaped missile striking the radius with enough force to shatter it into several pieces but not destroy it.  It also sent a spray of lead flakes into the wound.  These characteristics led Dr. Gregory to say that it was likely caused by the same bullet that exited the chest but that it was not likely caused by CE399.  Since the bullet struck but did not penetrate the radius, it is difficult to understand how much of the bullet would not have deflected away from the point of contact, although it is possible that a fragment could have gone through the wrist.  The thin laceration of the skin on the palm side of the wrist could have been made by a bullet fragment or possibly a bone fragment.
6. the only evidence of fragments flying up from the rear compartment came on the second shot (Tague and Greer).
7. it is extremely difficult to conceive of CE399 passing through  JFK, JBC's chest, taking out 10 cm of rib, smashing the radius, making a tiny exit laceration in the palm side of the wrist and then (with no apparent cause) deflecting left ward to the left thigh with enough energy to penetrate the thigh to a depth of about 1.5 inches.
8. JBC said he never felt the thigh wound and never felt pain from any of his wounds.

The HSCA did a trajectory analysis. Maybe you should review it. No where in their analysis is a bullet whizzing by JFK's head to make his hair wave and then nose diving to wound JBC by the right armpit. They also did not place JBC on one side of JFK for one shot and then move JBC to the other side of JFK for the other shot.

Serioulsly, would it not be easier to just accept there was just two shots than to go through all this pseudo logic about evidence and your liberal interpretation of the evidence and the witness statements?

[Andrew Mason]

The HSCA did a trajectory analysis. Maybe you should review it. No where in their analysis is a bullet whizzing by JFK's head to make his hair wave and then nose diving to wound JBC by the right armpit. They also did not place JBC on one side of JFK for one shot and then move JBC to the other side of JFK for the other shot.

Serioulsly, would it not be easier to just accept there was just two shots than to go through all this pseudo logic about evidence and your liberal interpretation of the evidence and the witness statements?

The HSCA did do a trajectory analysis. They found that JBC had to be sitting over the centre console to have his right armpit align with the path through JFK's middle.  They had NASA engineer Thomas Canning do a photographic analysis and using faulty reasoning that is where he put JBC. But that analysis was based on a faulty concept - that JBC's right shoulder would have been visible in Betzner's z186 photo if the man in front of Betzner had not been there.  In fact, JBC's right shoulder would not have been visible because it was blocked by the car.

As far as JBC moving - he didn't.  JFK moved between shots one and two.  In addition, the car turned left slightly, reducing the angle from the SN to about 3 degrees.  A bullet from the SN passing over JFK's right shoulder would have gone on to strike JBC in the right armpit at that point.

[Jack Nessan]

The HSCA did do a trajectory analysis. They found that JBC had to be sitting over the centre console to have his right armpit align with the path through JFK's middle.  They had NASA engineer Thomas Canning do a photographic analysis and using faulty reasoning that is where he put JBC. But that analysis was based on a faulty concept - that JBC's right shoulder would have been visible in Betzner's z186 photo if the man in front of Betzner had not been there.  In fact, JBC's right shoulder would not have been visible because it was blocked by the car.

As far as JBC moving - he didn't.  JFK moved between shots one and two.  In addition, the car turned left slightly, reducing the angle from the SN to about 3 degrees.  A bullet from the SN passing over JFK's right shoulder would have gone on to strike JBC in the right armpit at that point.

"a photographic analysis and using faulty reasoning that is where he put JBC. But that analysis was based on a faulty concept "

Of course "somebody" was mistaken, it always boils down to "someone" was wrong. So in the event that "someone" was correct you agree your whole theory is what is wrong? I guarantee you the part where JFK's hair is seen waving due to a passing bullet and the bullet then nose dives 8 inches into JBC's back is wrong.

[Jack Trojan]

Canning's chief mistake was that he didn't place Kennedy's shoulder mass over the car rail (see comparable image above). Otherwise, the lateral relationship of Kennedy and Connally held true.

Even if the shoulder line being blocked was so, we can rule out Connally being as rightward as you place him because we could have to be seeing his head in Betzner.

The WC/Canning/3D Legitimate Expert analysis all point to a bullet exiting Kennedy's throat going on to strike the right back of Connally.

You, on the other hand, have proposed an already-wounded Connally receiving a bullet at Z272 that more-honest analysis show would have entered the side of his shoulder mass.

You need to demonstrate that your proposed MB trajectory was even possible before you can make ANY assertions and your graphics are a non-starter.

[Andrew Mason]

Connally was "sitting over the centre console." You must have excelled in hyperbole at law school.

Where do YOU see JBC's left buttock in Canning's drawing? (2 HSCA 183).  I see it perched to the left of the jump seat, off the seat.

Even if the shoulder line being blocked was so, we can rule out Connally being as rightward as you place him because we could have to be seeing his head in Betzner.

I have him in the middle of the jump seat.  That is consistent with the Betzner photo. Besides we can see where he is in the film taken by David Powers and he is no where near the middle console. And JFK's right shoulder is well within the car even though he is leaning to the right.

By "shot two" you mean your shot two at Z272.

No. I mean Oswald's second shot at z272 - actually z271-272.

The WC/Canning/3D Legitimate Expert analysis all point to a bullet exiting Kennedy's throat going on to strike the right back of Connally.
You, on the other hand, have proposed an already-wounded Connally receiving a bullet at Z272 that more-honest analysis show would have entered the side of his shoulder mass.

I am not sure what you mean and why you think it is not an honest analysis.  The bullet followed along the outside of the fifth rib until it exerted so much inward pressure on the rib that it penetrated it and sent shards of bone into the lower lobe of the right lung and also caused the rib to fracture near the spine. In order to put that much inward pressure on the rib it had to have entered the back/armpit in a direction that was toward the midline. Since the shot from the SN was almost directly from behind at z271-72, in order to have the bullet go from the right side toward the middle, the body had to be turned, which, of course, it was.



 

[Andrew Mason]

So... Connally is no longer "sitting over the centre console"? Just half a buttock reaching to the console mid-line.

You are quibbling over semantics. So, to you, that is not sitting over the console. To me, it is.  But you are making progress.  Even you now acknowledge that Canning's placement was wrong.  You have come a long way.  I should also point out that Canning admitted to me that he found my argument that his placement was wrong persuasive.  He admitted that he would likely revise his placement if he were to do it again.  You can read his interesting 2003 email to me here.

If you think your SketchUp alignment of Kennedy and Connally (where their heads are almost in a line) is comparable to Powers, you need to get your eyes checked. There are Power frames where Kennedy straightened up and his shoulder was more over the car rail, similar to how he was seated in the Zapruder film as he approached the sign.

Since his elbow is on the car rail and it is extended out to his right as we see in the zfilm then his shoulder is not over the car rail.

LOL!

You now realize I have a sense of humour.  Again, progress!

Mason's disturbing visual of his Z272
torso-transit; Mason's skewing of the
image reduces the amount of deflection
angle to make it seem "possible"

You appear to disturb easily. 

The entry wound is on Connally's back surface (slightly above the armpit), not in through the right surface of his right shoulder (where there is no armpit).

I understand the entry point.  It was just to the right of the right shoulder blade and impacted the fifth rib, which is below the level of the right armpit. Here is a picture showing the armpit and fifth rib.

That point was exposed to the SN at z272.  A better question would be: "How does the bullet strike that point at z223?"

[Jack Trojan]

If you had been following, you would know it's not a "Magic Bullet" trajectory but a 3D recreation of Z193, to demonstrate where a bullet through Kennedy would end up if fired in the Z190s (which Mason proposed would sail pass Connally on his left side and gently lodge in his left thigh). The model is valid in demonstrating right-to-left issues and thus invalidates Mason's claim.

If that was a rendering of Z193 then JFK was NOT in the correct position to receive the MB from the SN. This is all about demonstrating that the MB trajectory was possible before trying to figure out how and where it zig-zagged in and out of Connally.

In my recreation, the bullet does strike Kennedy "high" because the 3D models I use are typically in standard anatomical-position.

Either you simulate JFK's correct body position for the MB trajectory or you don't. If you don't then your whole model is crap and you can't make any assertions.

Above: Forget Mason's version. It's forever discredited. Regarding Z193 and my reconstruction, compare Kennedy's chin level and left ear relative to his left shoulder. I believe all are much lower than in my anatomical model. As well, to be prefect, the left shoulder (or is it the left shoulder of the jacket) would have to be raised. It's early days and some fine-tuning will be necessary.



My anatomical-position 3D model would have to have the slouch applied. The slouch would bring more of the back forward and thus the entry point would be lower when the body is returned to the anatomical position.

If one build a 3D model based on surrogates, one would be recreating the surrogate's body type and posture, and not that of the person on the film.

All your graphics are invalid because they aren't based on real-world data. You must use surrogates with comparable body dimensions to create accurate models and avoid future embarrassment.

The HSCA Photographic Panel noticed that Kennedy in the wounding-position was different from the anatomical-position. Kennedy was slouched forward and the Panel drew the slouch accordingly.

Slouch? Go ahead, re-enact JFK's slouch and show the MB trajectory with revised graphics and try to advance your position. Otherwise, you are wasting our time.