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Author Topic: Lack Of Damage To CE-399  (Read 90528 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #240 on: February 19, 2019, 08:10:53 PM »
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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #240 on: February 19, 2019, 08:10:53 PM »


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #241 on: February 19, 2019, 10:42:18 PM »
I would have to check the US authorities but the Supreme Court of Canada has stated this on many occasions, the leading case is The Queen v. Morin [1988] 2 SCR 345.  The court stated the point this way (p. 362):

"The jury should be told that the facts are not to be examined separately and in isolation with reference to the criminal standard. This instruction is a necessary corollary to the basic rule referred to above. Without it there is some danger that a jury might conclude that the requirement that each issue or element of the offence be proved beyond a reasonable doubt demands that individual items of evidence be so proved."
It is very simple, common sense.  One can reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt about a fact based on many independent pieces of evidence that point to guilt but do not individually prove guilt.

For example, suppose the issue is identity of the killer and 16 witnesses independently describe 8 different things about the identity of the person who committed the crime (he wore a baseball cap, he had a beard, he had a bleeding cut on his left hand, he spoke with a french accent, he had blonde medium length hair, he wore blue running shoes, he had a blue denim jacket and he drove away in a red pickup truck with a damaged right tail-light). None of the witnesses were 100% sure that they made correct observations.  Now it so happens that a man fitting that description was stopped about a mile from the scene of the crime within a two minutes of the crime being committed, driving a red pickup truck with a damaged right tail-light.   It also turns out that the accused had been captured on video in a bar drinking with the deceased earlier in the evening.

Each one of those pieces of evidence cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt by itself nor can a single piece of evidence prove the identity of the accused as the killer beyond a reasonable doubt. But together they form the basis on which a jury could conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the accused was the killer.

In your example, there is no reasonable doubt that the accused was "driving a red pickup truck with a damaged right tail-light", right?  And there's no reasonable doubt that a video exists of him drinking with the deceased earlier in the evening, right (although I'm not sure how that's relevant unless he claimed to not know the victim at all, or he had an alibi that was contradicted by the video)?

If there is reasonable doubt of these things, then it's a whole different conversation.

Instead, let's say for example that the cops claimed he was arrested "driving a red pickup truck with a damaged right tail-light", but they lost the truck, or they produce a photo of the truck but it doesn't have a broken tail-light.  Or there are witnesses to the arrest who say he was arrested in a blue car...

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #242 on: February 19, 2019, 10:49:45 PM »
Yes. If there is enough independent evidence for the trier of fact to be satisfied that it could not reasonably fit together, as it does, without the ultimate conclusion advanced by the prosecution being correct, then the prosecution has proven the case. 

Fabricated evidence can be fabricated to appear to fit together.

Quote
The key is the independence of the evidence.

How do you determine / ensure that pieces of evidence are independent, especially when there are inconsistencies that must be cherry-picked around, or provenance problems with the evidence itself?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #242 on: February 19, 2019, 10:49:45 PM »


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #243 on: February 19, 2019, 10:52:40 PM »
Hi Andrew, so if I'm understanding you correctly you're stating that, in at least some cases, it can come down to the shear quantity of evidence rather than the quality of each individual piece of evidence, is that correct?

It's that principle that leads to silly crap like "he left his wedding ring behind" as "evidence" for murder.

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #244 on: February 19, 2019, 10:58:01 PM »
@Newbies: You'll never see any CTer post this image

 BS:

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #244 on: February 19, 2019, 10:58:01 PM »


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #245 on: February 19, 2019, 11:03:53 PM »
@Newbies
FMJ ammo is designed to resist damage while passing through flesh. See where RoboCall leaves that flesh designation out. Watch out for him and practically every other CTer. They twist everything; either from stupidity or just plain disingenuousness.

Are you claiming that CE399 only hit flesh?  Interesting...

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #246 on: February 19, 2019, 11:04:48 PM »
Another easy one. CE399 was travelling at a much lower rate-of-speed as compared to the head shot bullet velocity... thus retaining its front-end structural integrity.

...and you know this how?

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #247 on: February 19, 2019, 11:09:53 PM »
What's this latest drivel of yours got to do with reality?

Tell us why anyone would need to measure the speed of each missile in order to conclude that CE399 would certainly lose velocity by dint of passing through two clothed bodies, while the head shot missile had an open flight path to the intended target

So your evidence for CE399 not exploding is that it was travelling at a much lower rate-of-speed, and your evidence that it was travelling at a much lower rate-of-speed is that it didn't explode.  Is that about right?

What is your evidence that CE399 "passed through two clothed bodies"?

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Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #247 on: February 19, 2019, 11:09:53 PM »