Lack Of Damage To CE-399

[Walt Cakebread]

Why not? What specifically precludes those fragments from having come from CE-399?

The basic facts are.... the nominal weight of the bullet is 160 grains.... but due to  manufacturing tolerance it could have weighed 159.5

CE399 obviously lost some weight in the barrel of the rifle..... which would put it's weight at approximately 159.6 at the muzzle.....CE 399 weighed 158.6

Which leaves only one (1)  grain for the fragments.....  and the fragment in Connally's leg was probably heavier than 1 grain....

[Andrew Mason]

Why not? What specifically precludes those fragments from having come from CE-399?

Nothing "precludes" them.   The lead that was impacted into the femur could have been made by the butt end of CE399.   But the characteristics of the wrist wound - particularly the damage to the radius and the spray of metal flakes into the arm itself - suggests that it was struck by something other than CE399.   The damage to the radius, if made by a slower moving CE399 would have to be made by the hard nose of the bullet.  Sturdivan's figures for speed and yield pressure of the MC 6.5 mm ammunition was based on the nose striking bone, not the softer butt end.  I expect that the yield pressure of the butt end was substantially less so that if the butt end had struck the radius with enough force to break the very hard radius, there would have been more damage to the bullet.

[Walt Cakebread]

Nothing "precludes" them.   The lead that was impacted into the femur could have been made by the butt end of CE399.   But the characteristics of the wrist wound - particularly the damage to the radius and the spray of metal flakes into the arm itself - suggests that it was struck by something other than CE399.   The damage to the radius, if made by a slower moving CE399 would have to be made by the hard nose of the bullet.  Sturdivan's figures for speed and yield pressure of the MC 6.5 mm ammunition was based on the nose striking bone, not the softer butt end.  I expect that the yield pressure of the butt end was substantially less so that if the butt end had struck the radius with enough force to break the very hard radius, there would have been more damage to the bullet.

Sturdivan's figures for speed and yield pressure of the MC 6.5 mm ammunition was based on the nose striking bone, not the softer butt end.

If the blunt butt end of the bullet had hit Connally wrist....it would have tore his hand off.....

[Tim Nickerson]

Thanks for posting this.  Where did you find these?

This confirms that the visors were struck by blood, tissue or bone fragments.  It also indicates that the right visor was struck on both sides, which suggests that material bounced off the windshield or frame and hit the front side of the right visor. Both visors were flipped up at the time of the shots and not as showing in the sketch.

I can't remember where I got them Andrew. I have others by Frazier as well. If you'd like to see them , I'd be glad to send them your way.

[Tim Nickerson]

The basic facts are.... the nominal weight of the bullet is 160 grains.... but due to  manufacturing tolerance it could have weighed 159.5

Or it could have weighed 161.5 grains, like one weighed by Robert Frazier.

CE399 obviously lost some weight in the barrel of the rifle..... which would put it's weight at approximately 159.6 at the muzzle.....CE 399 weighed 158.6

Any weight lost in the barrel would be negligible.

Which leaves only one (1)  grain for the fragments.....  and the fragment in Connally's leg was probably heavier than 1 grain....

From the WC testimony of Dr. Shires:

Mr. SPECTER - What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?
Dr. SHIRES - One millimeter in diameter---one to two.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you have any estimate as to how much that might weigh in grains?
Dr. SHIRES - In grains---a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a grain---very small.
Mr. SPECTER - A tenth of one grain?
Dr. SHIRES - Yes.


Dr. Gregory, in looking at the X-Ray of the thigh, said that the fragment was about 5 tenths of a millimeter by 2 millimeters. At those dimensions, the lead fragment would weigh 17.8 milligrams. One grain is equivalent to 64.8 milligrams. So, that fragment weighed about 1/4 of a grain.

[Tim Nickerson]

Nothing "precludes" them.   The lead that was impacted into the femur could have been made by the butt end of CE399.   But the characteristics of the wrist wound - particularly the damage to the radius and the spray of metal flakes into the arm itself - suggests that it was struck by something other than CE399.   The damage to the radius, if made by a slower moving CE399 would have to be made by the hard nose of the bullet.  Sturdivan's figures for speed and yield pressure of the MC 6.5 mm ammunition was based on the nose striking bone, not the softer butt end.  I expect that the yield pressure of the butt end was substantially less so that if the butt end had struck the radius with enough force to break the very hard radius, there would have been more damage to the bullet.

Two things: 1) The lead fragment was not in the femur. 2) Sturdivan's figure for speed and yield pressure of the MC 6.5 mm ammunition was based on the butt end striking bone, not the nose. The fragments in the wrist are explained by the bullet striking base first.

[Tim Nickerson]

Thanks for posting this.  Where did you find these?

This confirms that the visors were struck by blood, tissue or bone fragments.  It also indicates that the right visor was struck on both sides, which suggests that material bounced off the windshield or frame and hit the front side of the right visor. Both visors were flipped up at the time of the shots and not as showing in the sketch.

A better copy and the the backside of page:





I think that I may have got those from the ED forum. Not sure though.

[Steve Logan]

A better copy and the the backside of page:





I think that I may have got those from the ED forum. Not sure though.

He doesn't mention any hole in windshield. He must have been in on it. One of the 645 conspirators.