Lack Of Damage To CE-399

[Tim Nickerson]

He doesn't mention any hole in windshield. He must have been in on it. One of the 645 conspirators.

He was one of the main figures in the whole conspiracy.

[Liam Kelly]

The examination of the provenance and authenticity of CE399 was a joint collaboration of Garry Aguilar
and Josiah Thompson.

This is my chief source for these points and my source for the lack of Todds initials on the bullet is
John Hunt who did examine it at the archives.

Hunt was adamant they were not to be found.

I'm quite happy to entertain the possibility that a scratch on a bullet may be hard to find,
but remember, this is stored in the National Archives, not someone's garage and the propostion that "the initials are
there but we just cant see them' is unsatisfactory to say the least.

I have no reason to believe that Todd was lying when he swore he initialed the bullet.
I also, have no reason to believe that John Hunt was lying when he says on close examination of the bullet
the initials are not present.
So, at this stage that point is unresolved.

Tim, you said
"Odum was well into his 80s and four decades had passed. He can be forgiven for not recalling having handled the bullet."

Really Tim?
Where is the proof his memory was deficient or that the passage of years had somehow affected the reliability of his statement?

And it's not a question of memory in any case.
He did not say he couldnt recall the bullet...he said he had never ever seen or touched CE399 and further more, he said that he
 had never visited Wright or Tomlinson as part of any enquiry into it's authenticity.
Nothing vague about that..

Fazier and his times:
If Frazier has demonstrated a pattern of incorrect entry of times in various documents it matters not and if so then
discussion of whether or not this item fits that pattern is yet another point.
Im happy to accept the possibility of errors from Frazier.
As far as the points I'm making, what Frazier does or doesnt do is somewhat irrelevant.
My points on this matter dont rely on Frazier's accuracy with times.

Here is my position which reflects my first post on the topic.

OP Wright said the bullet in the archives is not the one they found at Parkland.

An FBI memo says Odum showed the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson and they recognised it.
Odum says he did no such thing and he has never laid eyes or hands on CE399.

Elmer Todd said he initalled the bullet.
John Hunt says that the initialls cannot be found on the bullet in the archives.

Any enquiry as to the authenticity and provenance of the bullet is therefore problematic and as far as I'm
concerned remains unresolved.

The other point I also made was that the 'magic bullet theory' was just that...a theory.
The commssion was split down the middle on this and said exactly that,  and further stated that whether
or not the theory was true, it didnt matter to the conclusions of it's report anyway.
And its worthwhile to note that the 'theory' was the  commissions.
The FBI backed the governor's account of 2 separate bullets.

In my view, the official account concerning CE399 says far more about the commission and the FBI, than it
does about the shooting.













 

[Tim Nickerson]

The examination of the provenance and authenticity of CE399 was a joint collaboration of Garry Aguilar
and Josiah Thompson.

This is my chief source for these points and my source for the lack of Todds initials on the bullet is
John Hunt who did examine it at the archives.

Hunt was adamant they were not to be found.

I'm quite happy to entertain the possibility that a scratch on a bullet may be hard to find,
but remember, this is stored in the National Archives, not someone's garage and the propostion that "the initials are
there but we just cant see them' is unsatisfactory to say the least.

Hunt did not examine the actual bullet itself. He viewed the same low resolution photos that we see today at the National Archives site online.

I have no reason to believe that Todd was lying when he swore he initialed the bullet.
I also, have no reason to believe that John Hunt was lying when he says on close examination of the bullet
the initials are not present.
So, at this stage that point is unresolved.

Scratch off the bolded part and it makes it a lot easier.

Tim, you said
"Odum was well into his 80s and four decades had passed. He can be forgiven for not recalling having handled the bullet."

Really Tim?
Where is the proof his memory was deficient or that the passage of years had somehow affected the reliability of his statement?

And it's not a question of memory in any case.
He did not say he couldnt recall the bullet...he said he had never ever seen or touched CE399 and further more, he said that he
 had never visited Wright or Tomlinson as part of any enquiry into it's authenticity.
Nothing vague about that..

Come on Liam, you know full well that my point is valid.

Fazier and his times:
If Frazier has demonstrated a pattern of incorrect entry of times in various documents it matters not and if so then
discussion of whether or not this item fits that pattern is yet another point.
Im happy to accept the possibility of errors from Frazier.
As far as the points I'm making, what Frazier does or doesnt do is somewhat irrelevant.
My points on this matter dont rely on Frazier's accuracy with times.

Here is my position which reflects my first post on the topic.

OP Wright said the bullet in the archives is not the one they found at Parkland.

An FBI memo says Odum showed the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson and they recognised it.
Odum says he did no such thing and he has never laid eyes or hands on CE399.

Elmer Todd said he initalled the bullet.
John Hunt says that the initialls cannot be found on the bullet in the archives.

Any enquiry as to the authenticity and provenance of the bullet is therefore problematic and as far as I'm
concerned remains unresolved.

The authenticity and provenance is only problematic in the minds of some CTs.











Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which, for the record, is a bullet, and also for the record, it is a bullet which was found in the Parkland Hospital following the assassination. Are you familiar with this exhibit?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of the FBI Washington Field Office.
Mr. EISENBERG - Does that have your mark on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, it does.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm

As you can see, in the case of CE-399, there really isn't a lack of evidence though, is there?

The other point I also made was that the 'magic bullet theory' was just that...a theory.
The commssion was split down the middle on this and said exactly that,  and further stated that whether
or not the theory was true, it didnt matter to the conclusions of it's report anyway.
And its worthwhile to note that the 'theory' was the  commissions.
The FBI backed the governor's account of 2 separate bullets.

In my view, the official account concerning CE399 says far more about the commission and the FBI, than it
does about the shooting.

The FBI never really backed the Governor's account of 2 separate bullets. Just look at the drawing of Robert Frazier's that I posted. No bullet holes were found in the limo. The bullet that passed through Kennedy had to go somewhere. If not into Connally, then where?

[Bill Chapman]

"The FBI never really backed the Governor's account of 2 separate bullets. Just look at the drawing of Robert Frazier's that I posted. No bullet holes were found in the limo. The bullet that passed through Kennedy had to go somewhere. If not into Connally, then where?" -TimN.

Tim, since when do contradictions matter to the CT crowd? Their claims always fall a dot or two short of completing any given connection to reality.

[Andrew Mason]

Two things: 1) The lead fragment was not in the femur.

Dr. Shires and Dr. Gregory viewed the xrays taken from both angles (front and side) and agreed that there was a fragment in the femur. Dr. Shires debrided the wound down to the femur which suggests that the wound was deep. It was also oblique in the direction of the femur so it was a fair distance to debride it down to tbe femur.  Te HSCA looked at the xrays and one of the medical experts thought that the object that looked like a fragment on the femur was just a film artifact.  I am not sure how that conclusion was reached since the fragment was seen on both xrays, and it was a conclusion not shared by Shires.  No one thought to have Gov. Connally's femur re-xrayed.

   2) Sturdivan's figure for speed and yield pressure of the MC 6.5 mm ammunition was based on the butt end striking bone, not the nose. The fragments in the wrist are explained by the bullet striking base first.

Not sure about that. It is difficult to obtain that kind of data from experiment because it is hard to get bullets to fly backward, but I' ll reread his HSCA testimony.

[Tim Nickerson]

Dr. Shires and Dr. Gregory viewed the xrays taken from both angles (front and side) and agreed that there was a fragment in the femur. Dr. Shires debrided the wound down to the femur which suggests that the wound was deep. It was also oblique in the direction of the femur so it was a fair distance to debride it down to tbe femur.  Te HSCA looked at the xrays and one of the medical experts thought that the object that looked like a fragment on the femur was just a film artifact.  I am not sure how that conclusion was reached since the fragment was seen on both xrays, and it was a conclusion not shared by Shires.  No one thought to have Gov. Connally's femur re-xrayed.

Dr Gregory:  ......a fragment of metal, again microscopic measuring about five-tenths of a millimeter by 2 millimeters, lies just beneath the skin, about a half inch on the medial aspect of the thigh.

[Andrew Mason]

"The FBI never really backed the Governor's account of 2 separate bullets. Just look at the drawing of Robert Frazier's that I posted. No bullet holes were found in the limo. The bullet that passed through Kennedy had to go somewhere. If not into Connally, then where?" -TimN.

Tim, since when do contradictions matter to the CT crowd? Their claims always fall a dot or two short of completing any given connection to reality.

Frazier's reasoning is valid. He had searched the car for bullet marks and had not found any in the rear seating compartment. But his assumption may not have been. The assumption was that one bullet had made all of Connally's wounds since he only felt one bullet hit -the second. Connally said he never felt the thigh or wrist wounds and never felt pain from any of the three wounds.  He felt the chest bullet because of the impact and the damage. Apparently, he did not notice the damage to his wrist because it was pressed against his chest all the way to Parkland.

[Gary Craig]