Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: Lack Of Damage To CE-399  (Read 90970 times)

Online Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
    • SPMLaw
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #144 on: February 03, 2019, 07:53:29 PM »
Advertisement
I think the Governor would at times go along with Nellie's claim that he said "Oh, no, no, no, no!" before he was struck by the second shot. She may have been wrong on that as she was on some other things.
It is evident from his various statements that JBC wasn't really sure about when he said it. It is interesting that in his HSCA testimony Connally said that he uttered the words "Oh, no, no, no" not out of concern for his own wounding but out of concern for the President (1 HSCA 43):

    When I was hit, or shortly before I was hit-no, I guess it was
    after I was hit-I said first, just almost in despair, I said, "no, no,
    no," just thinking how tragic it was that we had gone through this
    24 hours, it had all been so wonderful and so beautifully executed.
    The President had been so marvelously received and then here,
    at the last moment, this great tragedy. I just said, "no, no, no, no."
    Then I said right after I was hit, I said, "My God, they are going to
    kill us all."

Nellie, however, was always consistent in stating that JBC uttered the words after the first shot and before he was hit in the chest.

Quote
In any event, Connally is not seen on the film to mouth words until Z242; see "Listening to the Zapruder Film" ( Link ). The article's placement of "Oh, no, no, no!" at Z242-50 suits Mason because he believes the Governor said that separate from "My God, they're going to kill us all!" and--per Nellie and sometimes the Governor--before he was struck in the back by the second shot (which Mason places at Z272).

According to the Mason Theory, therefore, Connally would have to shout something like "My God, they're going to kill us all!" in the the 2.24 sec between Z272 and Z312. The SBT proponents have Connally taking about one second (Z223 to Z242) to perceive the strike to the back and then formulate words. That would leave the Mason Theory with 1.2 sec (Z290 to Z312) for the Governor to say "My God, they're going to kill us all!" The lip-readers say he took 1.75 sec (Z255 to Z287) to say "My God, they're going to kill us all!"

The Mason Theory
which is that the 20+ witnesses who said that JFK was hit by the first shot were correct; that the 40+ witnesses who said that the shot pattern was 1.....2..3 were correct; and the 20+ witnesses who said that the first shot was after z186 were correct.

Quote
not only doesn't have enough time for Connally to say those words but the lip-readers said he stopped speaking at Z287. Furthermore, we see Connally turn towards the camera beginning Z289 and he's not mouthing anything.

The lip readers were not exactly sure when he said "My God, they're going to kill us all". They cannot see his lips from z255-287 because, as they pointed out, his faces is in shadow during this period so we cannot see his lips. (His face is sideways to the camera and the sun is at the back of his head):

"255-287: Gov. Connally is screaming and talking (his face is in shadow; he may be saying, "My God, they're going to kill us all," based on what can be seen of his expressions); President Kennedy, meanwhile, is fainting. "

They also say that he appears to be uttering some words from 312-320:

"312 to 320s   Gov. and Mrs. Connally seem to be talking (his mouth is moving; she testified "John said nothing" after he slumped back into her lap).  320s   Gov. Connally's mouth seems to be forming the word "Go."

JBC did not mention that he said anything after "My God, they're going to kill us all".  So it may be that he started to utter these words sometime just before the head shot and finished saying them just after.



JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #144 on: February 03, 2019, 07:53:29 PM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3723
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #145 on: February 03, 2019, 08:12:54 PM »
Amazing that people can read lips on the Zapruder film ::)
Quote
Nellie, however, was always consistent in stating that JBC uttered the words after the first shot and before he was hit in the chest.
Insistent is more like it. The governor testified that he was saying them when he was hit [read my post above]
What difference does it make? He was hit by a separate shot. They were there. But folks here who were not there refuse to believe them. Go figure that.

Online Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
    • SPMLaw
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #146 on: February 03, 2019, 09:58:23 PM »
Amazing that people can read lips on the Zapruder film ::) Insistent is more like it. The governor testified that he was saying them when he was hit [read my post above]
But my point was that on other occasions he stated that he uttered these words BEFORE he was hit. Nellie always said he uttered those words before the second shot.
Quote
What difference does it make?
The difference is in the timing of the second shot!! 

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #146 on: February 03, 2019, 09:58:23 PM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1825
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #147 on: February 03, 2019, 10:29:16 PM »

Nellie, however, was always consistent in stating that JBC uttered the words after the first shot and before he was hit in the chest.


Offline Jerry Freeman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3723
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #148 on: February 03, 2019, 11:16:56 PM »
But my point was that on other occasions he stated that he uttered these words BEFORE he was hit. Nellie always said he uttered those words before the second shot.The difference is in the timing of the second shot!!
Re-read that statement. Do you realize that there is no contradiction there? Why get anal about when something was said rather than the testimony of when shots were fired....
Quote
the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle.
The Governor thought [at the time] that someone might be out there with an automatic rifle. He made his statement under oath.
He was hit after the President was...he said so and so he said.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #148 on: February 03, 2019, 11:16:56 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
    • SPMLaw
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #149 on: February 04, 2019, 01:38:09 PM »
Surely you meant to say "hit in the back" and not hit in the chest".
One can use "chest" to mean the trunk. Besides, even if I were to use "chest" to mean just the anterior part of the trunk, he was hit in the chest - just from the inside out.

Quote
LOL! Point one and three are entirely your interpretation.
No. I am just pointing out what they said. The interpretation that they actually meant the second shot when they said it was the first is yours.
Quote
   Many who recount the impact of two shots actually said he first reacted or slumped on the shot that occurred before the head shot. In a typical LN three shot scenario, JFK first reacts on the second shot, not the "first".
Like I said.
Quote
I don't recall any of the 20+ witnesses referencing Zapruder frame nos. showing the approach to the sign.
I don't recall any who said the first shot was at z160 either. 

Quote
They still concluded that Connally was talking (making "expressions").
I am not sure they concluded anything. The were unsure of anything except when he said "Oh, no, no, no".

Offline Jack Nessan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #150 on: February 04, 2019, 03:28:19 PM »
I think the Governor would at times go along with Nellie's claim that he said "Oh, no, no, no, no!" before he was struck by the second shot. She may have been wrong on that as she was on some other things.


"Oh, no, no, no!"

In any event, Connally is not seen on the film to mouth words until Z242; see "Listening to the Zapruder Film" ( Link ). The article's placement of "Oh, no, no, no!" at Z242-50 suits Mason because he believes the Governor said that separate from "My God, they're going to kill us all!" and--per Nellie and sometimes the Governor--before he was struck in the back by the second shot (which Mason places at Z272).

According to the Mason Theory, therefore, Connally would have to shout something like "My God, they're going to kill us all!" in the the 2.24 sec between Z272 and Z312. The SBT proponents have Connally taking about one second (Z223 to Z242) to perceive the strike to the back and then formulate words. That would leave the Mason Theory with 1.2 sec (Z290 to Z312) for the Governor to say "My God, they're going to kill us all!" The lip-readers say he took 1.75 sec (Z255 to Z287) to say "My God, they're going to kill us all!"

The Mason Theory not only doesn't have enough time for Connally to say those words but the lip-readers said he stopped speaking at Z287. Furthermore, we see Connally turn towards the camera beginning Z289 and he's not mouthing anything.

 

Jackie reference JBC saying No No No not once but in two different interviews.

WC: Mrs. KENNEDY. You know, there is always noise in a motorcade and there are always motorcycles, besides us, a lot of them backfiring. So I was looking to the left. I guess there was a noise, but it didn't seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, "Oh, no, no, no."

Jackie (Theodore White "Camelot" Interview 12/19): "They were gunning the motorcycles; there were these little backfires; there was this one noise like that; I thought it was a backfire. Then next I saw Connally grabbing his arms and saying no no no nonono, with his fist beating----

------------------
The whole concept of an early missed shot would explain three shots with the carcano, the only problem is it never happened and the reason you know that is the eyewitnesses state JFK reacted to the first shot.



« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 03:37:49 PM by Jack Nessan »

Online Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
    • SPMLaw
Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #151 on: February 04, 2019, 04:51:33 PM »
But then Jackie goes on from there to describe the head shot impact. So she's saying Connally yelled "Oh, no, no, no!" after the shot heard before the head shot. So, unless you believe a two-shot scenario, she's describing what happened at Z242 to Z250 as occurring after the second shot.

The first shot must have missed if it made no real impression on Jackie. Could be she mistook the first shot as a backfire. "They were gunning the motorcycles." In the Z150s, the cycles are straightening up and beginning to speed up. She would have heard the accelerating cycles and first shot at the same time, and associated the two.
Jerry, that is your editorializing on the evidence. One does not have to believe a two-shot scenario to conclude that z242-250 is before the second shot. 

Jackie could recall hearing only two shots.  We all agree there were three shots (except for Jack Nessan).  We don't know from her evidence alone which shot did not register with her.  We cannot tell from her evidence when she heard Gov. Connally saying "oh, no, no, no" in relation to the second shot.  Her evidence is consistent with her failing to hear the first shot and seeing JFK bring his hands up to his neck and hearing JBC say "oh, no, no, no" after the second shot.  But it is also consistent with her seeing JFK bring his hands up and hearing JBC say "oh, no, no, no" after the first shot and failing to register the second shot.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lack Of Damage To CE-399
« Reply #151 on: February 04, 2019, 04:51:33 PM »