Lack Of Damage To CE-399

[Jerry Freeman]

But my point was that on other occasions he stated that he uttered these words BEFORE he was hit. Nellie always said he uttered those words before the second shot.The difference is in the timing of the second shot!!

Re-read that statement. Do you realize that there is no contradiction there? Why get anal about when something was said rather than the testimony of when shots were fired....

the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle.

The Governor thought [at the time] that someone might be out there with an automatic rifle. He made his statement under oath.
He was hit after the President was...he said so and so he said.

[Jerry Organ]

Nellie, however, was always consistent in stating that JBC uttered the words after the first shot and before he was hit in the chest.

Surely you meant to say "hit in the back" and not hit in the chest".

which is that the 20+ witnesses who said that JFK was hit by the first shot were correct; that the 40+ witnesses who said that the shot pattern was 1.....2..3 were correct; and the 20+ witnesses who said that the first shot was after z186 were correct.

LOL! Point one and three are entirely your interpretation. Many who recount the impact of two shots actually said he first reacted or slumped on the shot that occurred before the head shot. In a typical LN three shot scenario, JFK first reacts on the second shot, not the "first". I don't recall any of the 20+ witnesses referencing Zapruder frame nos. showing the approach to the sign.

The lip readers were not exactly sure when he said "My God, they're going to kill us all". They cannot see his lips from z255-287 because, as they pointed out, his faces is in shadow during this period so we cannot see his lips.

They still concluded that Connally was talking (making "expressions").

(His face is sideways to the camera and the sun is at the back of his head):
"255-287: Gov. Connally is screaming and talking (his face is in shadow; he may be saying, "My God, they're going to kill us all," based on what can be seen of his expressions); President Kennedy, meanwhile, is fainting. "

They weren't sure of the individual words but were sure Connally was talking.

They also say that he appears to be uttering some words from 312-320:

"312 to 320s   Gov. and Mrs. Connally seem to be talking (his mouth is moving; she testified "John said nothing" after he slumped back into her lap).  320s   Gov. Connally's mouth seems to be forming the word "Go."

Now that could merely be Connally grimacing due to pain.

JBC did not mention that he said anything after "My God, they're going to kill us all".  So it may be that he started to utter these words sometime just before the head shot and finished saying them just after.

"These words"? You mean "My God, they're going to kill us all" or the supposed attempt at the word "Go"?

[Andrew Mason]

Surely you meant to say "hit in the back" and not hit in the chest".

One can use "chest" to mean the trunk. Besides, even if I were to use "chest" to mean just the anterior part of the trunk, he was hit in the chest - just from the inside out.

LOL! Point one and three are entirely your interpretation.

No. I am just pointing out what they said. The interpretation that they actually meant the second shot when they said it was the first is yours.

   Many who recount the impact of two shots actually said he first reacted or slumped on the shot that occurred before the head shot. In a typical LN three shot scenario, JFK first reacts on the second shot, not the "first".

Like I said.

I don't recall any of the 20+ witnesses referencing Zapruder frame nos. showing the approach to the sign.

I don't recall any who said the first shot was at z160 either. 

They still concluded that Connally was talking (making "expressions").

I am not sure they concluded anything. The were unsure of anything except when he said "Oh, no, no, no".

[Jack Nessan]

I think the Governor would at times go along with Nellie's claim that he said "Oh, no, no, no, no!" before he was struck by the second shot. She may have been wrong on that as she was on some other things.

"Oh, no, no, no!"

In any event, Connally is not seen on the film to mouth words until Z242; see "Listening to the Zapruder Film" ( Link ). The article's placement of "Oh, no, no, no!" at Z242-50 suits Mason because he believes the Governor said that separate from "My God, they're going to kill us all!" and--per Nellie and sometimes the Governor--before he was struck in the back by the second shot (which Mason places at Z272).

According to the Mason Theory, therefore, Connally would have to shout something like "My God, they're going to kill us all!" in the the 2.24 sec between Z272 and Z312. The SBT proponents have Connally taking about one second (Z223 to Z242) to perceive the strike to the back and then formulate words. That would leave the Mason Theory with 1.2 sec (Z290 to Z312) for the Governor to say "My God, they're going to kill us all!" The lip-readers say he took 1.75 sec (Z255 to Z287) to say "My God, they're going to kill us all!"

The Mason Theory not only doesn't have enough time for Connally to say those words but the lip-readers said he stopped speaking at Z287. Furthermore, we see Connally turn towards the camera beginning Z289 and he's not mouthing anything.

Jackie reference JBC saying No No No not once but in two different interviews.

WC: Mrs. KENNEDY. You know, there is always noise in a motorcade and there are always motorcycles, besides us, a lot of them backfiring. So I was looking to the left. I guess there was a noise, but it didn't seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, "Oh, no, no, no."

Jackie (Theodore White "Camelot" Interview 12/19): "They were gunning the motorcycles; there were these little backfires; there was this one noise like that; I thought it was a backfire. Then next I saw Connally grabbing his arms and saying no no no nonono, with his fist beating----

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The whole concept of an early missed shot would explain three shots with the carcano, the only problem is it never happened and the reason you know that is the eyewitnesses state JFK reacted to the first shot.

[Jerry Organ]

Jackie reference JBC saying No No No not once but in two different interviews.

WC: Mrs. KENNEDY. You know, there is always noise in a motorcade and there are always motorcycles, besides us, a lot of them backfiring. So I was looking to the left. I guess there was a noise, but it didn't seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, "Oh, no, no, no."

Jackie (Theodore White "Camelot" Interview 12/19): "They were gunning the motorcycles; there were these little backfires; there was this one noise like that; I thought it was a backfire. Then next I saw Connally grabbing his arms and saying no no no nonono, with his fist beating----

But then Jackie goes on from there to describe the head shot impact. So she's saying Connally yelled "Oh, no, no, no!" after the shot heard before the head shot. So, unless you believe a two-shot scenario, she's describing what happened at Z242 to Z250 as occurring after the second shot.

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The whole concept of an early missed shot would explain three shots with the carcano, the only problem is it never happened and the reason you know that is the eyewitnesses state JFK reacted to the first shot.

The first shot must have missed if it made no real impression on Jackie. Could be she mistook the first shot as a backfire. "They were gunning the motorcycles." In the Z150s, the cycles are straightening up and beginning to speed up. She would have heard the accelerating cycles and first shot at the same time, and associated the two.

[Andrew Mason]

But then Jackie goes on from there to describe the head shot impact. So she's saying Connally yelled "Oh, no, no, no!" after the shot heard before the head shot. So, unless you believe a two-shot scenario, she's describing what happened at Z242 to Z250 as occurring after the second shot.

The first shot must have missed if it made no real impression on Jackie. Could be she mistook the first shot as a backfire. "They were gunning the motorcycles." In the Z150s, the cycles are straightening up and beginning to speed up. She would have heard the accelerating cycles and first shot at the same time, and associated the two.

Jerry, that is your editorializing on the evidence. One does not have to believe a two-shot scenario to conclude that z242-250 is before the second shot. 

Jackie could recall hearing only two shots.  We all agree there were three shots (except for Jack Nessan).  We don't know from her evidence alone which shot did not register with her.  We cannot tell from her evidence when she heard Gov. Connally saying "oh, no, no, no" in relation to the second shot.  Her evidence is consistent with her failing to hear the first shot and seeing JFK bring his hands up to his neck and hearing JBC say "oh, no, no, no" after the second shot.  But it is also consistent with her seeing JFK bring his hands up and hearing JBC say "oh, no, no, no" after the first shot and failing to register the second shot.

[Andrew Mason]

Andrew can explain whatever it is he can explain, maybe how an unimpeded round struck JBC's leg but only went in an inch or whatever is the current thought.

Whether a first shot could have missed is not the point.  The evidence is very consistent that it did not miss.  This was implicitly accepted by the WC and their counsel so it is not an outrageous conclusion from the evidence, despite what SBTers would like to suggest. 

As far as the first shot striking JBC in the thigh, I am not an expert so I can only say what appears from the evidence.   The conclusion that the first shot struck JBC in the left thigh but not in the back or wrist is based on the following:
1. the trajectory through JFK's neck goes right to left and appears to pass just to left of JBC's midline
2. the bullet passed through at least 5 layers of clothing (jacket, lining shirt, doubled shirt in front),  and struck the underside of JFK's tie on exiting.  It also passed through 2 layers of skin and several inches of strap muscle.  How much all that caused the bullet to slow is not really known. It is estimated based on some tests but those tests obviously did not duplicate the path exactly and used some assumptions about the stopping power of the above.
3. the bullet then likely tumbled end over end in travelling toward JBC. 
4. the wound characteristics of the thigh wound fit a 6.5 mm missile striking at an angle butt-first and penetrating about an inch and a half to the femur.  There was evidence that a fragment of lead was embedded in the femur at the end of the bullet path. All of this fits with the known characteristics of CE399.
5. the wound characteristics of the wrist wound fit an irregular shaped missile striking the radius with enough force to shatter it into several pieces but not destroy it.  It also sent a spray of lead flakes into the wound.  These characteristics led Dr. Gregory to say that it was likely caused by the same bullet that exited the chest but that it was not likely caused by CE399.  Since the bullet struck but did not penetrate the radius, it is difficult to understand how much of the bullet would not have deflected away from the point of contact, although it is possible that a fragment could have gone through the wrist.  The thin laceration of the skin on the palm side of the wrist could have been made by a bullet fragment or possibly a bone fragment.
6. the only evidence of fragments flying up from the rear compartment came on the second shot (Tague and Greer).
7. it is extremely difficult to conceive of CE399 passing through  JFK, JBC's chest, taking out 10 cm of rib, smashing the radius, making a tiny exit laceration in the palm side of the wrist and then (with no apparent cause) deflecting left ward to the left thigh with enough energy to penetrate the thigh to a depth of about 1.5 inches.
8. JBC said he never felt the thigh wound and never felt pain from any of his wounds.

[Jack Nessan]

Whether a first shot could have missed is not the point.  The evidence is very consistent that it did not miss.  This was implicitly accepted by the WC and their counsel so it is not an outrageous conclusion from the evidence, despite what SBTers would like to suggest. 

As far as the first shot striking JBC in the thigh, I am not an expert so I can only say what appears from the evidence.   The conclusion that the first shot struck JBC in the left thigh but not in the back or wrist is based on the following:
1. the trajectory through JFK's neck goes right to left and appears to pass just to left of JBC's midline
2. the bullet passed through at least 5 layers of clothing (jacket, lining shirt, doubled shirt in front),  and struck the underside of JFK's tie on exiting.  It also passed through 2 layers of skin and several inches of strap muscle.  How much all that caused the bullet to slow is not really known. It is estimated based on some tests but those tests obviously did not duplicate the path exactly and used some assumptions about the stopping power of the above.
3. the bullet then likely tumbled end over end in travelling toward JBC. 
4. the wound characteristics of the thigh wound fit a 6.5 mm missile striking at an angle butt-first and penetrating about an inch and a half to the femur.  There was evidence that a fragment of lead was embedded in the femur at the end of the bullet path. All of this fits with the known characteristics of CE399.
5. the wound characteristics of the wrist wound fit an irregular shaped missile striking the radius with enough force to shatter it into several pieces but not destroy it.  It also sent a spray of lead flakes into the wound.  These characteristics led Dr. Gregory to say that it was likely caused by the same bullet that exited the chest but that it was not likely caused by CE399.  Since the bullet struck but did not penetrate the radius, it is difficult to understand how much of the bullet would not have deflected away from the point of contact, although it is possible that a fragment could have gone through the wrist.  The thin laceration of the skin on the palm side of the wrist could have been made by a bullet fragment or possibly a bone fragment.
6. the only evidence of fragments flying up from the rear compartment came on the second shot (Tague and Greer).
7. it is extremely difficult to conceive of CE399 passing through  JFK, JBC's chest, taking out 10 cm of rib, smashing the radius, making a tiny exit laceration in the palm side of the wrist and then (with no apparent cause) deflecting left ward to the left thigh with enough energy to penetrate the thigh to a depth of about 1.5 inches.
8. JBC said he never felt the thigh wound and never felt pain from any of his wounds.

The HSCA did a trajectory analysis. Maybe you should review it. No where in their analysis is a bullet whizzing by JFK's head to make his hair wave and then nose diving to wound JBC by the right armpit. They also did not place JBC on one side of JFK for one shot and then move JBC to the other side of JFK for the other shot.

Serioulsly, would it not be easier to just accept there was just two shots than to go through all this pseudo logic about evidence and your liberal interpretation of the evidence and the witness statements?