The Fundamental Problem

[Tim Nickerson]

    Thanks for the correction. Since I never have personally measured off the distance I went the conservative route. That Great Distance when No Other Fragment allegedly even left the confines of the Limo is hard to fathom. If you give this some serious thought, the distance this alleged fragment traveled is Greater than the Total Length of Houston St that the JFK Limo traveled down after turning right off of Main. And to top All of that off, this alleged Fragment then just Disappeared. ALL of this is Total Bunk.

You're welcome. I used the Robert West survey map of 1964. You can download it from the Robert Cutler collection at the Baylor University site. It's among several maps. Most of which Cutler marked on himself.

I have no problem accepting that a fragment traveled that far and struck Tague on the cheek and was never found. I think it's unlikely that it hit the curb first. The curb was not  chipped. It had a lead smear on it. That's all. You believe that the Tague strike was from a 4th Shot by a 2nd shooter. So, I'll direct your question to Oscar towards you.

What do you Think: (1) Struck Tague on the face?, and (2) Where did that object which struck Tague in the face go?

[Dillon Rankine]

larry SPersonivant said that in his book JFK Myths. I believe Haag said that did not necessarily have to have disintegrated and that the hole left on the pavement would have been quickly covered up by the passing of vehicles. At least that's how I remeber it. If this were to be the case it would be a better explanation for the Tague wound than for a fragment of the third shot theory, IMHO. It  also better explains the lead smudge on the concrete. This part; smudge vs chipped concrete is one that deserves clarity. Was it a smudge or chipped concrete?

The Haags conducted an expeirment which found most of the street shot would have disintegrated with only a narrow range of upward flying shards of concrete and/or metal. The Tague hit, they concluded in a peer reviewed paper, was most probably caused by fragment from the headshot.

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-shot-that-missed-jfk-new-forensic.html?m=1

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/the-shot-that-missed



 

[Tim Nickerson]

Well, there's no evidence that anything other than the fragments CE-567 & 569 plus the other smaller fragments inside the limo and on the curb were recovered. Also, I'm not sure the curb was actually chipped. On page 116 of the WCR it says "mark".

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305176

[Tim Nickerson]

The Haags conducted an expeirment which found most of the street shot would have disintegrated with only a narrow range of upward flying shards of concrete and/or metal. The Tague hit, they concluded in a peer reviewed paper, was most probably caused by fragment from the headshot.

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-shot-that-missed-jfk-new-forensic.html?m=1

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/the-shot-that-missed

Multiple shots were fired into sections of roadway asphalt set at that angle with the same surprising result: The Carcano bullets were completely and totally destroyed with not one single, recognizable bullet fragment to be found in the nominal 1-inch deep impact craters.

?This may seem difficult to believe,? Luke Haag wrote, ?but the answer and reason lies in the extreme ?g? forces acting on the bullet during the deceleration process. This phenomenon of total bullet destruction has been studied and explained in a previous article by this writer. [Haag, L.C. and A. Jason, ?Where are the Bullets?? AFTE Journal, Vol.44: No.3, Summer 2012, pp.196-207]

?In this case, a bullet traveling approximately 2100 f/s (1,432 miles per hour) comes to a complete stop in about 1 inch of travel in asphalt. A rough calculation of the decelerating forces acting on this bullet, expressed as gravities (g), yields a value of 1.6 million g. The relatively soft copper jacket disintegrates into minute fragments and the very soft lead core essentially vaporizes.

?The next surprise,? writes Haag, ?is the relatively confined, conical ejection of the pulverized asphaltic material that departs the surface of the asphalt along an angle that is orthogonal to the surface. This cone of debris is so tightly confined, that a person or object could be standing within as little as 2 feet of the impact site and not be struck by any of this ejected debris.? [emphasis in original, Haag, ?The Missing Bullet in the JFK Assassination? page 75]


The video isn't playing for me. I assume that it's from the JFK: Cold Case File program. I've watched that a couple of times and don't recall seeing that experiment or the Haags mentioning it. The results are surprising to me. But it was surprising to them as well. I'm going to re-watch the program tonight. I highly recommend it to those haven't already seen it.

[Oscar Navarro]

       Specifically What do you Think: (1) Struck Teague on the face?, and (2) Where did that object which struck Tague in the face go?

I don't know to both questions.

[Oscar Navarro]

Oscar,

Why would the fragment that struck Tague have had to been small? The fragments that struck the windshield and chrome piece did so with considerable force,

Because I believe Tague would have felt the impact of a large fragment. I don't think the fragment(s) that struck the windshield carried much force or else it would have done more damage to the windshield glass. Try this. Go outside and throw a small metal ball bearing against the windshield of your car and see what happens.    Just kidding, buddy. I just might try this experiment at a junkyard. IMHO, the fragment that struck the chrome part was CE-567 as there was no lead residue found on the dent. It's possible that CE-569 was still inside CE-567 during impact and then separated and that a much smaller lead fragment struck the windshield. I have no idea how much force it would take to make a dent on the chrome part and have no idea how far that fragment, let's say it was CE-567/69, would have travelled if it had not struck the chrome part but it just doesn't compute that an even smaller fragment could have travelled the distance from the limo to the curb and caused the smudge on the concrete. Ditto for the fragment that struck Tague. Look, I may be overstating the perceived force required to send fragments flying off toward Tague but it just doesn't compute in my mind. 

[Oscar Navarro]

The Haags conducted an expeirment which found most of the street shot would have disintegrated with only a narrow range of upward flying shards of concrete and/or metal. The Tague hit, they concluded in a peer reviewed paper, was most probably caused by fragment from the headshot.

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-shot-that-missed-jfk-new-forensic.html?m=1

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/the-shot-that-missed

Ah, thanks Dillon. Well, I was half right. If the first shot missed the asphalt (not made out of concrete) the hole would have been covered within a short period of time. But that was one heck of a hole, wasn't it! I think it would have been noticed right away by DPD scurrying around looking for evidence. That, IMHO, is something to consider. Also, Haag said (it's not in this video) that the round disintegrating against the asphalt would have left an odor that could have been similar to the odor of spent gunpowder. That would explain why Senator Yarborough smelled gunpowder. It would appear that going by the logical process of eliminating the obvious false assumptions one has to arrive at the conclusion that it was from the head shot fragments that Tague was slightly wounded. BUT I'M NOT CONVINCED!!!! AAAAhhhhh!!!!!

[Royell Storing]

You're welcome. I used the Robert West survey map of 1964. You can download it from the Robert Cutler collection at the Baylor University site. It's among several maps. Most of which Cutler marked on himself.

I have no problem accepting that a fragment traveled that far and struck Tague on the cheek and was never found. I think it's unlikely that it hit the curb first. The curb was not  chipped. It had a lead smear on it. That's all. You believe that the Tague strike was from a 4th Shot by a 2nd shooter. So, I'll direct your question to Oscar towards you.

What do you Think: (1) Struck Tague on the face?, and (2) Where did that object which struck Tague in the face go?

     It is extremely hard to believe that the 1 single bullet fragment that was allegedly Blown Out of the Ground Level JFK Limo: (1) Traveled a distance greater than a football field, (2) Missed striking anyone standing on the South Elm grass section, (3) Missed striking Any of the cars on Main St, (4) Then, after traveling this great distance struck Tague in the face with a force so great he didn't even notice it at the time. The point made by Oscar Navarro regarding the bullet fragment(s) that struck both the JFK Limo chrome molding and windshield Not having the energy behind them to penetrate either vs the contrasting distance traveled by the alleged Tague Fragment is very compelling.