When did Brennan take up position?

[Alan Ford]

Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pep bottle on any previous days on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Givens certainly changed his story regarding the cigarette trip much later for a specific reason. However I doubt we can ever determine what happened if we believe everyone lied about their actions that day. What we do know is that the bottle and lunch sack were fingerprinted and considered evidence on day one. Yet were never sent to the FBI that night apparently because Oswald?s prints were not on them. The employees were not fingerprinted until months later and at that stage the evidence abandoned.

Mr Crow, I think Mr Shelley blurted out the truth in his testimony, and Mr Givens was simply coached to deny it.

The bottle and lunch sack became a nuisance, because they'd made such a ballyhoo about it initially. But not as big a nuisance as Mr Rowland!

[Alan Ford]

-Mr Givens ate the 'assassin's lunch' that morning (see Mr Shelley on this!)

I believe that you're right.....  Recall that the cops took a Dr Pepper bottle to the police lab....  If we could know the truth I'd bett that the Dr Pepper bottle had Charlie Givens prints on it....

 

[Walt Cakebread]

Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pep bottle on any previous days on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Givens certainly changed his story regarding the cigarette trip much later for a specific reason. However I doubt we can ever determine what happened if we believe everyone lied about their actions that day. What we do know is that the bottle and lunch sack were fingerprinted and considered evidence on day one. Yet were never sent to the FBI that night apparently because Oswald?s prints were not on them. The employees were not fingerprinted until months later and at that stage the evidence abandoned.

we do know is that the bottle and lunch sack were fingerprinted and considered evidence on day one. Yet were never sent to the FBI that night apparently because Oswald?s prints were not on them.

Givens was a convicted felon...The DPD certainly had his prints on file..... 

[Colin Crow]

we do know is that the bottle and lunch sack were fingerprinted and considered evidence on day one. Yet were never sent to the FBI that night apparently because Oswald?s prints were not on them.

Givens was a convicted felon...The DPD certainly had his prints on file.....

So why not get Givens to lie from day one? His lunch in the SN......would have been a lot tidier. Why the need to get Williams involved in that mess by Saturday? They had both in for questioning Friday, yet Williams lunchtime trip starts to evolve the next day.

How many witnesses lied and when? We can speculate forever, just consider how many people are required to lie for your theory. And if they were all prepared to lie why does the story seem such a mess? I have to use William of Occam to make sense of the events.

Just one question. Did BRW go upstairs with Jarman and Norman or not?

[Alan Ford]

Just one question. Did BRW go upstairs with Jarman and Norman or not?

Mr Crow, I know you've asked this question of Mr Cakebread, but...

Mr Williams's own stated reason for going up to 6 rings true for me:

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up.

So I believe he went up to 6 on his own and then, at some point, left. How long he stayed up there, and what he saw, is the million dollar question!

Not to take this off-topic, but his words above raise an interesting question: why did Messrs Lovelady & Arce not stick to the arrangement of meeting up on 6?

[Walt Cakebread]

Mr Crow, I know you've asked this question of Mr Cakebread, but...

Mr Williams's own stated reason for going up to 6 rings true for me:

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up.

So I believe he went up to 6 on his own and then, at some point, left. How long he stayed up there, and what he saw, is the million dollar question!

Not to take this off-topic, but his words above raise an interesting question: why did Messrs Lovelady & Arce not stick to the arrangement of meeting up on 6?

I believe Williams.....  When he said he thought they all were going to return to the sixth floor after washing up and grabbing their lunch bags....And I believe that he was the only one who went to the sixth floor..... Did he misunderstand or did someone change that plan?

I'm left to guess about WHO changed the plan?....  Did that person know that there was evidence being planted up there on the sixth floor?   But the most important question is.... Did someone make a major mistake by not chasing Williams off that floor immediately at about 12:15 ( or whenever BRW arrived there)  Someone most certainly was assigned to make sure that nobody was on the sixth floor after noon....  I suspect that the man was Jack Dougherty, but he screwed up and didn't see Williams go to the sixth floor..... so he didn't know that BRW was there silently munching his lunch at the SE corner .....   

[Colin Crow]

Mr Crow, I know you've asked this question of Mr Cakebread, but...

Mr Williams's own stated reason for going up to 6 rings true for me:

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up.

So I believe he went up to 6 on his own and then, at some point, left. How long he stayed up there, and what he saw, is the million dollar question!

Not to take this off-topic, but his words above raise an interesting question: why did Messrs Lovelady & Arce not stick to the arrangement of meeting up on 6?

Alan, my questions were to anyone not just Walt and general in nature regarding the number if liars required. Do not trust the WC testimonies too much......these were the result of the Ball/Belin trip to Dallas just before the testimonies were taken. If possible use material closer to the original event. Williams admitted the 6th floor adventure by day 2. Even then he tried to make the timing of it much earlier (and shorter). This would eventually fall apart and Jarman and Norman could no longer attempt to cover for him by saying he went up with them.

[Colin Crow]

I believe Williams.....  When he said he thought they all were going to return to the sixth floor after washing up and grabbing their lunch bags....And I believe that he was the only one who went to the sixth floor..... Did he misunderstand or did someone change that plan?

I'm left to guess about WHO changed the plan?....  Did that person know that there was evidence being planted up there on the sixth floor?   But the most important question is.... Did someone make a major mistake by not chasing Williams off that floor immediately at about 12:15 ( or whenever BRW arrived there)  Someone most certainly was assigned to make sure that nobody was on the sixth floor after noon....  I suspect that the man was Jack Dougherty, but he screwed up and didn't see Williams go to the sixth floor..... so he didn't know that BRW was there silently munching his lunch at the SE corner .....

Thing is, could the gunman in the SW window see or even know BRW was eating his chicken in the SN? Did the gunman become aware of Williams first or vice versa......tend to believe the former. Williams left his lunch behind and unfinished after he was asked to leave just minutes before the motorcade arrived.