When did Brennan take up position?

[Colin Crow]

I think your post-12:24 timestamp for Mr Brennan is spot on--and potentially very interesting! 

We don't know that Mr Williams was on the sixth floor at this time. He is an utterly unreliable witness.

I don't believe he's Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'. (The explanations you offer are not impossible but not v. probable IMHO.)

Mr Brennan's testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

Doesn't sound to me like the green we see in Hughes/Martin.

Could Mr Brennan have caught a glimpse of Mr Williams' back and conflated him with the next (white) man? Not impossible. But again not v. probable IMO.

Personally I suspect that, if Mr Williams did venture up to 6 that lunchtime, he encountered a person or persons (the latter more likely) who told him they were Presidential protection and he needed to vamoose.

But I may be wrong about that!

One thing I'm sure of: Mr Williams saw more than he said he did.

I think we can agree that Williams was unreliable and saw more than he would tell. I suspect he was up there, with his lunch. Remember that was originally widely announced as the assassin?s lunch. Williams originally tried not to be associated with the 6th floor at all but would have to change his story over time as he quickly realised he would have to account for the police likely finding his prints on the bag and bottle. Also he likely surmised that someone might have seen him up there also, I believe Rowland did. So he then did the next best thing and tried to be on the sixth floor much earlier than the 12.15 timestamp provided by Rowland for the gunmans presence.

Jarman and Norman tried to claim he went up with them to the fifth but they eventually had to recant before the WC. They provided evidence that their trip upstairs occurred after 12.22 and ties in nicely with Brennan observing those two after 12.24.

[Walt Cakebread]

I think your post-12:24 timestamp for Mr Brennan is spot on--and potentially very interesting! 

We don't know that Mr Williams was on the sixth floor at this time. He is an utterly unreliable witness.

I don't believe he's Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'. (The explanations you offer are not impossible but not v. probable IMHO.)

Mr Brennan's testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

Doesn't sound to me like the green we see in Hughes/Martin.

Could Mr Brennan have caught a glimpse of Mr Williams' back and conflated him with the next (white) man? Not impossible. But again not v. probable IMO.

Personally I suspect that, if Mr Williams did venture up to 6 that lunchtime, he encountered a person or persons (the latter more likely) who told him they were Presidential protection and he needed to vamoose.

But I may be wrong about that!

One thing I'm sure of: Mr Williams saw more than he said he did.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

This clothing description matches exactly with Howard Brennan's affidavit of 1:30 pm 11/22/63 .....  It is an accepted fact that Lee Oswald was wearing a reddish brown shirt and dark gray trousers at the TSBD that morning, and he didn't even own any light colored khaki clothing....

[Walt Cakebread]

Hello Mr Ford. Firstly I gather you have no issue with the original proposal. Brennan?s observations of the TSBD were after 12.24.

Given that we know Williams was on the 6th floor at this time as Jarman and Norman were on their way to the fifth floor. After their arrival Williams leaves. He was in the SN, as shown by the statements of those officers first on the scene. His lunch was found there, not 2 or 3 sets of windows westward.

Williams shirt was certainly a greenish colour. Perhaps someone would post the picture. Could it not be described as khaki? Rowland also mentioned a greenish shirt for the black man in the SN......coincidence? As for Brennan mistaking the two as one person, maybe he simply saw the back of Williams leaving and the assassin entering.....assumed it to be one person.....impossible?

Rowland"s description of the man?s age could also simply be mistaken.....when did that white stuff get in Williams' hair? He had white stuff all over his clothes too......maybe it was this presentation that deceived Rowland.....impossible?

Brennan saw only two men on the fifth floor......Jarman and Norman.....that was after 12.24 and also saw movement in the SN. We know Williams was there (at least on the 6th floor) until after 12.24.

Williams must have left and the assassin enter after 12.24.

Given that we know Williams was on the 6th floor at this time as Jarman and Norman were on their way to the fifth floor.

I'm not being antagonistic or arguing...but .... HOW do you know that "Williams was on the 6th floor at this time as Jarman and Norman were on their way to the fifth floor."    There are photos that were taken before the shots and the Hughes film ( taken about 4 seconds before the shots ) shows only ONE figure on the fifth floor ( none on the sixth) ....The one figure that is clearly visible is in the last window (east) on the fifth floor. and there might be a person behind the window that Junior Jarman occupied, (fourth window)  but the film isn't very clear.....

Bottom line.... Bonnie Lad is NOT seen in the film that was taken just four seconds prior to the shots.....

[Alan Ford]

I think we can agree that Williams was unreliable and saw more than he would tell. I suspect he was up there, with his lunch. Remember that was originally widely announced as the assassin?s lunch. Williams originally tried not to be associated with the 6th floor at all but would have to change his story over time as he quickly realised he would have to account for the police likely finding his prints on the bag and bottle. Also he likely surmised that someone might have seen him up there also, I believe Rowland did. So he then did the next best thing and tried to be on the sixth floor much earlier than the 12.15 timestamp provided by Rowland for the gunmans presence.

Jarman and Norman tried to claim he went up with them to the fifth but they eventually had to recant before the WC. They provided evidence that their trip upstairs occurred after 12.22 and ties in nicely with Brennan observing those two after 12.24.

My take, for what it's worth, Mr Crow----------------

----------------Mr Givens ate the 'assassin's lunch' that morning (see Mr Shelley on this!)
----------------Mr Rowland's simultaneous sighting of Man A (black, east window) and Man B (white, with weapon, west window) tells me that Man A and Man B were conspirators---- Man B must have been v. relaxed about Man A's seeing him with a weapon!
----------------Mr Arnold's sighting has to be explained away by DPD, FBI... enter Mr Williams, who will change his story as per evolving instructions, up to and including eating chicken-on-the-bone sandwich (!?)
----------------It's possible, I think, that Mr Williams was held up on 6...

Incidentally! I also think Mr Piper may have wandered up to 6 at the wrong time too. His account of his own doing around motorcade time just don't add up IMO. (& Why was he rather pointedly asked in his Warren testimony if he'd gone higher than 4 that day?) V. mysterious!

[Walt Cakebread]

My take, for what it's worth, Mr Crow----------------

----------------Mr Givens ate the 'assassin's lunch' that morning (see Mr Shelley on this!)
----------------Mr Rowland's simultaneous sighting of Man A (black, west window) and Man B (white, with weapon, east window) tells me that Man A and Man B were conspirators---- Man B must have been v. relaxed about Man A's seeing him with a weapon!
----------------Mr Arnold's sighting has to be explained away by DPD, FBI... enter Mr Williams, who will change his story as per evolving instructions, up to and including eating chicken-on-the-bone sandwich (!?)
----------------It's possible, I think, that Mr Williams was held up on 6...

Incidentally! I also think Mr Piper may have wandered up to 6 at the wrong time too. His account of his own doing around motorcade time just don't add up IMO. (& Why was he rather pointedly asked in his Warren testimony if he'd gone higher than 4 that day?) V. mysterious!

As a preface....  The statements that were extracted from the witnesses by the cover up committee are not to be used as the gospel truth.... The shyster lawyers were there to hide the truth, not expose it......

Mr Ford, I believe that Arnold Rowland said that he saw a white man with a high powered rifle like a thirty odd six, with a high power telescopic sight  mounted on it  behind a window at the WEST end of the sixth floor.....

Mr Givens ate the 'assassin's lunch' that morning   I agree ....and I believe that it was Charlie Givens who constructed the loafers nook......He built it so he could hide from the boss and goof off and smoke by that open window.....   There were reports of cigarette butts on the floor but that bit of information was swept under the rug, because Lee Oswald didn't smoke.

[Alan Ford]

Mr Ford, I believe that Arnold Rowland said that he saw a white man with a high powered rifle like a thirty odd six, with a high power telescopic sight  mounted on it  behind a window at the WEST end of the sixth floor.....

Oops! You're quite right, Mr Cakebread. I have edited my post accordingly. Thank you! 

[Colin Crow]

Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pep bottle on any previous days on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Givens certainly changed his story regarding the cigarette trip much later for a specific reason. However I doubt we can ever determine what happened if we believe everyone lied about their actions that day. What we do know is that the bottle and lunch sack were fingerprinted and considered evidence on day one. Yet were never sent to the FBI that night apparently because Oswald?s prints were not on them. The employees were not fingerprinted until months later and at that stage the evidence abandoned.

[Walt Cakebread]

Oops! You're quite right, Mr Cakebread. I have edited my post accordingly. Thank you! 

-Mr Givens ate the 'assassin's lunch' that morning (see Mr Shelley on this!)

I believe that you're right.....  Recall that the cops took a Dr Pepper bottle to the police lab....  If we could know the truth I'd bett that the Dr Pepper bottle had Charlie Givens prints on it....