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Author Topic: BWF and LMR may not have been the only ones who saw LHO with a bag on 11/22/1963  (Read 122864 times)

Offline Alan Ford

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I merely pointed out - and you seem to agree - that Frazier's bag and Oswald's lunch bag can't be the same bag.

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Thus, the relevant point for you (which seemed clear) is that one or the other is lying about the bag.

There is a third possibility. Let's see if you can think of it yourself!  Thumb1:
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 03:39:29 PM by Alan Ford »

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Offline Walt Cakebread

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This is simple:

Frazier - Oswald carried a long bag that was not his lunch.  Oswald tells him it contains curtain rods.  "I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day."

Oswald - tells the DPD he carried his lunch and not curtain rods (i.e. any long bag such as described by Frazier).

Put the statements together and the conclusion is that one or the other is lying.  It is impossible to reconcile the statements and descriptions as Dishonest John pathetically tries.  Frazier clearly and directly, with Oswald's confirmation, rules out that Oswald carried his lunch that morning.  Any honest person with an ounce of intelligence would not suggest that a bag such as that described by Frazier was his ordinary "little" lunch sack.  It's over two feet long!  If there were even a scintilla of doubt, we also have Oswald's confirmation to Frazier that he is not carrying his lunch in the bag.  "I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day."

Thus, who is lying and why?  What incentive does Frazier, a dumb teenager, have to lie about whether Oswald carried his lunch or a long bag that morning?  None.  What incentive does Oswald have to lie about whether he carried a long bag?  If it contained something exculpatory - like curtain rods - he has every incentive to tell the truth and admit that he did.  If it contains something incriminating - like  a rifle - he has every incentive to lie.  What did he do?  He lied.  This is not rocket science unless you are dishonest - like Crooked John or biased.   The facts and circumstances are crystal clear.

Put the statements together and the conclusion is that one or the other is lying.

Completely agree....  One of the two is not being truthful......  And I believe that person is Wes Frazier.    But this does not mean that Frazier had any malicious intent.

In some ways he also was / is a victim of the corrupt DPD.   They had told him that Lee Oswald had told them that yes he had carried a long sack that morning and the sack contained curtain rods, but in reality Lee had said nothing of the kind.  He told them he carried his lunch in a bag .... 
The cops had told Frazier that Oswald had carried the rifle in Fraziers car that morning and they could charge him with being an accessory to murder. They said that Lee had said that carried curtain rods in a long sack ....  Frazier realized that if he supported the curtain rod story he could not be charged with being an accessory. so he agreed that Lee had told him that the long sack contained curtain rods.   

Then to insure that Frazier wouldn't recant the story the forced him to take a sham lie detector test.... And they centered the subject of the test, on the paper sack.

When they were done they said that he'd passed with flying colors , and they were convinced that he was telling the truth.  In reality the polygraph was totally worthless because a polygraph cannot be administered to a person who is under stress.   

To this very day Frazier believes that the polygraph verified and supported the tale that he's been given by the DPD.     
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 04:40:36 PM by Walt Cakebread »

Offline Oscar Navarro

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How do any of these points relate to whether CE 142 was the bag that Frazier saw?

Oswald's unusual behavior on 21/22 November before and after the shootings is evidence as to his guilt. These are just examples of that unusual behavior. Since CE-142 is the bag that carried CE-139 the connection is obvious. Since Oswald carried no lunch bag that morning BWF could not have seen any bag other than CE-142. It is really quite simple, JohnI. If you were really just seeking the truth then this would be obvious.

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Offline Alan Ford

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Since Oswald carried no lunch bag that morning BWF could not have seen any bag other than CE-142.

Such multifaceted silliness in one sentence!  :D

Let's see if we can tweak it towards the Land of Logic:

Even if BWF did not see any bag other than CE-142, that does not mean that Oswald carried no lunch bag that morning.

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Offline Alan Ford

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They had told him that Lee Oswald had told them that yes he had carried a long sack that morning and the sack contained curtain rods [...] He told them he carried his lunch in a bag

Maybe he told them both of these things!

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Offline Oscar Navarro

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How many times has this been discussed and you still don't get it.  Just because Oswald had a bag in the parking lot doesn't mean he carried a bag into the TSBD.  In fact, the only witness to him entering the TSBD said that he was not
.

And you rely on Jack Dougherty as a source?

 "I recall vaguely having seen Lee Oswald, when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today.".....11/23 statement to FBI

Mr. BALL - Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that morning when he came to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye---that's the reason why I said it that way...??.

This is the guy who goes from a vaguely seeing Oswald to being definite that Oswald had nothing in his hands. Very convincing witness  ::)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Maybe he told them both of these things!

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No....I don't believe so..... I believe that Lee told them that he carried his lunch in the sack....Just as Fritz said he he did.... Because Fritz went on to elaborate on the sack ... Fritz said that he asked Lee about the size of the sack and Lee said that he didn't recall exactly....He said that it might have been bigger than necessary to contain his sandwich and fruit because "you can't always find a sack that is just the right size"

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Oswald's unusual behavior on 21/22 November before and after the shootings is evidence as to his guilt. These are just examples of that unusual behavior. Since CE-142 is the bag that carried CE-139 the connection is obvious. Since Oswald carried no lunch bag that morning BWF could not have seen any bag other than CE-142. It is really quite simple, JohnI. If you were really just seeking the truth then this would be obvious.

Since CE-142 is the bag that carried CE-139

When you say it like that, you really, really, need to back up that wacky claim by some hard evidence.


Since Oswald carried no lunch bag that morning BWF could not have seen any bag other than CE-142. It is really quite simple, 

Simple or not, Frazier has denied all his life and from day 1 that CE-142 is the bag he saw Oswald carry.

But let me guess, he, who actually was there and saw the bag, was wrong and you, who wasn't there and never saw the bag, are right, correct? 

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