BWF and LMR may not have been the only ones who saw LHO with a bag on 11/22/1963

[Alan Ford]

Here are a few:

https://whowhatwhy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Contents-of-Oswalds-wallet..jpg

https://whowhatwhy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Oswald?s-military-ID-said-to-have-been-stained-by-FBI-fingerprinting-fluid..jpg

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0255a.htm

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0254a.htm

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0257b.htm

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0258a.htm

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0119a.htm

Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question which is not particularly pertinent to this particular witness, but how many prints on various things like these boxes and other paraphernalia that the Commission may now have in its possession have been identified as those of Oswald?
Mr. LATONA. Six all told.
Representative BOGGS. Six altogether?
Mr. LATONA. Six.
Representative BOGGS. That includes these?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
Representative BOGGS. How many, three?
Mr. LATONA. Three so far.
Mr. DULLES. (addressing Mr. Eisenberg) You have dealt with three so far?
Mr. EISENBERG. Three so far. We should modify this. We are only introducing this morning evidence associated with the crime, directly with the crime.Now, there were many papers submitted to the identification division. I believe you did identify----
Mr. LATONA. Personal effects, wallet, pictures, papers, and things of that kind which in themselves bear. Oswald's prints, which they should because they belong to him.

Thank you, Mr Nickerson! 

Now!

Let's ask the obvious questions!

1. Why were these items tested for fingerprints (if indeed the dark smudges on each of them are indeed from fingerprint testing)?

2. Were any of them tested for fingerprints 8 days before being found?

The answer to 1 is pretty straightforward: to a) verify that Mr Oswald had handled them (lest he claim that they were planted) and/or b) determine whether they might bear prints belonging to known subversives or possible confederates of Mr (and possibly even Mrs Marina?) Oswald. (This is what Mr Latona means by "... which in themselves bear Oswald's prints, which they should because they belong to him"-------i.e. no significant fingerprints found!)

The answer to 2 is very straightforward: no!

Now!

Two new questions!

1. Why would 2 curtain rods found in the Paine garage be tested for Mr Oswald's fingerprints?

2. Were any of these curtain rods submitted for testing for Mr Oswald's fingerprints 8 days before 2 curtain rods were taken from the Paine garage?

The answer to 1 is: still no logical reason known to man!

The answer to 2 is: yes indeed---------both of them!

One final question!

Of the following haul from the on-the-record WC visit to Ms Paine's Irving home on 23 March 1964-----------



------------how many were submitted by Agent Howlett to Lieutenant Day for fingerprinting?

 

[Alan Ford]

Presuming there was a package containing curtain rods found in the TSBD, and that there was concerted effort not to have this finding disrupt the Hoover directive to find "no conspiracy" and to comply with LBJ's "He's our man" and Will Fritz "This case is cinched", then the skeptical JFK Forum reader is left with 2 primary options:

1. Some curtain rods were found in TSBD, early, during the searching of the TSBD, and someone decided to hide this fact, and kept this package until March 15th, when it became for some reason, a necessity to submit an official document of request for testing for fingerprints, to Lt.Day.


2.Some curtain rods were not found early, during the searching of TSBD, until 3  months approx., past Nov 22/63, and during this 3 month period of time, Ruth Paine was  unaware a set of rods was missing from her garage until requested to examine her garage again some 3 months later.

Note: Mrs Paine could have lied also.


Imo, no.2 option is the more probable

I agree! Something happened in March that caused a major problem for the Oswald-Acted-Alone investigation. 

for the following reasons:

A. Oswald probably hid the "2ft, give or take a couple of inches" package in the annexed roofed part of the loading dock area, when he entered that morning, given that Jack Dougherty saw nothing in Oswald's hands, when Oswald entered the back door of the TSBD proper. (Note: BW Frazier saw Oswald going thru the annex back door, NOT the actual back door to TSBD connected to that.)

B. There is less probability of finding a hidden 2ft long x 6in diameter package in the larger area and volume of the annex part of the loading dock, than finding a package of curtain curtain rods,  in a small storage room at the very entrance of the TSBD.

C. If the package was found early, then it follows that there should have been a much earlier "coverup" episode trying to return said rods to Mrs Paines garage, well before March 15th 1964. Or there would have been effort to get rid of the package asap, in accordance with not upsetting the Hoover, LBJ, Fritz imperative that Oswald "did it", period, end of discussion, move on.

There is a third scenario:

Mr Oswald did not hide the curtain rods (they were not lethal weapons after all), he just left them somewhere-------and then found them gone right after the assassination. This would have been the moment he clocked how he had been tricked. The curtain rods were hidden by whoever framed him.

Probable side-issue!

Do we know for sure when this photograph was taken?



 

[John Iacoletti]

Mr. LATONA. Personal effects, wallet, pictures, papers, and things of that kind which in themselves bear. Oswald's prints, which they should because they belong to him.

How was it determined which items belong to him?

[Walt Cakebread]

Presuming there was a package containing curtain rods found in the TSBD, and that there was concerted effort not to have this finding disrupt the Hoover directive to find "no conspiracy" and to comply with LBJ's "He's our man" and Will Fritz "This case is cinched", then the skeptical JFK Forum reader is left with 2 primary options:

1. Some curtain rods were found in TSBD, early, during the searching of the TSBD, and someone decided to hide this fact, and kept this package until March 15th, when it became for some reason, a necessity to submit an official document of request for testing for fingerprints, to Lt.Day.


2.Some curtain rods were not found early, during the searching of TSBD, until 3  months approx., past Nov 22/63, and during this 3 month period of time, Ruth Paine was  unaware a set of rods was missing from her garage until requested to examine her garage again some 3 months later.

Note: Mrs Paine could have lied also.


Imo, no.2 option is the more probable for the following reasons:

A. Oswald probably hid the "2ft, give or take a couple of inches" package in the annexed roofed part of the loading dock area, when he entered that morning, given that Jack Dougherty saw nothing in Oswald's hands, when Oswald entered the back door of the TSBD proper. (Note: BW Frazier saw Oswald going thru the annex back door, NOT the actual back door to TSBD connected to that.)

B. There is less probability of finding a hidden 2ft long x 6in diameter package in the larger area and volume of the annex part of the loading dock, than finding a package of curtain curtain rods,  in a small storage room at the very entrance of the TSBD.

C. If the package was found early, then it follows that there should have been a much earlier "coverup" episode trying to return said rods to Mrs Paines garage, well before March 15th 1964. Or there would have been effort to get rid of the package asap, in accordance with not upsetting the Hoover, LBJ, Fritz imperative that Oswald "did it", period, end of discussion, move on.

Excellent post, Zeon.....  Logical and reasonable.....

I had hoped that someone would post the photo number 3 that is denoted on the first floor diagram that Mr Iacoletti posted.    I'd like to see if the steps up to the loading dock were constructed in a manner that would have allowed Lee Oswald to slip the paper sack under the steps??? 

[John Iacoletti]

[Walt Cakebread]

Thank you Mr I.....  It doesn't appear that Lee Oswald could have slipped the paper sack under the steps .....Buuuut.... It sur looks like the gap between the horizontal boards beneath the dock was wide enough to slip the paper sack with curtain rods in it through the gap..... 

Thus with his sandwich and Oranaple in his jacket pocket he could easily have entered the TSBD without anything in his hand....

[Walt Cakebread]

I agree! Something happened in March that caused a major problem for the Oswald-Acted-Alone investigation. 

There is a third scenario:

Mr Oswald did not hide the curtain rods (they were not lethal weapons after all), he just left them somewhere-------and then found them gone right after the assassination. This would have been the moment he clocked how he had been tricked. The curtain rods were hidden by whoever framed him.

Probable side-issue!

Do we know for sure when this photograph was taken?



 

1. Some curtain rods were found in TSBD, early, during the searching of the TSBD, and someone decided to hide this fact, and kept this package until March 15th, when it became for some reason, a necessity to submit an official document of request for testing for fingerprints, to Lt.Day.

I disagree with this idea.....  If there had been curtain rods found in or near the TSBD early in the "investigation"..... They would simply have destroyed them and swept the whole episode under the rug....

I believe it's more reasonable that someone like Frankie What's His Face who found the clipboard, found the curtain rods and they were compelled to go through the motion of checking them for lee's finger prints......   Of course it was a foregone conclusion that the curtain rods would have no connection to Lee Oswald.... 

[Bill Chapman]

Thank you Mr I.....  It doesn't appear that Lee Oswald could have slipped the paper sack under the steps .....Buuuut.... It sur looks like the gap between the horizontal boards beneath the dock was wide enough to slip the paper sack with curtain rods in it through the gap..... 

Thus with his sandwich and Oranaple in his jacket pocket he could easily have entered the TSBD without anything in his hand....

Tell us why he wouldn't have told the police that he had curtain rods, and just claim that someone took them.