When did Jarman and Norman go to the 5th floor?

[Walt Cakebread]

Uhhh... I discuss Oswald's alibi regarding Jarman and Norman ad nauseum in chapter 4 at patspeer.com

I nail a lot of stuff down, including that someone sitting in the Domino Room with the door open would have a perfect view of anyone coming in the back door. This is shown here. The back door is on the left of the photo and the Domino Room entrance is on the right.

Lee wouldn't have had to see Junior Jarman and Harold Norman actually passing through the portal to know that the did in fact come in through that door.....  He could have seen them pass by the windows and them seen or heard them getting on the elevator.... 

[John Iacoletti]

Uhhh... I discuss Oswald's alibi regarding Jarman and Norman ad nauseum in chapter 4 at patspeer.com

Thanks Pat.  Good reading.  I'm impressed at your thoroughness.  At least you acknowledge that it's merely a possibility that Oswald saw Norman and Jarman in the shipping area going to the elevators rather than Walt just declaring as a fact that Oswald said that.  But here's my problem with that.  Kelley independently recalled Oswald saying he ate his lunch with them.  Is that just a coincidence, or is it more likely that Oswald said something about having lunch with them?  As you point out, Oswald may very well have had lunch at the same time as Norman (but not Jarman) in the domino room, and he may very well have seen them together immediately before or after that, but that would have been much earlier (around noon).  Also, while it's possible that somebody in the domino room could see someone walking between the back door and the elevators, there is a pretty small area of the domino room that has a sight line there through the domino room door (assuming it even stayed open), and there is a long bench with no table facing north in that area and possibly one seat at a small table against the east window (also facing north) in a position to see through the domino room door at all.  And no location has a view of the back door itself.  If he was eating or even reading the newspaper, he would probably have been at a table.  If Oswald had really said anything remotely resembling seeing them through a door going through a different room some 50 feet away, why wasn't that reflected in the accounts of the interrogation?  It was either that he had lunch with them or they walked in or through the room (implying the room he was in).  Were they all just really lousy at following a conversation?  Fritz is the only one who indicates that this Norman/Jarman sighting happened at the time the motorcade went by, and that doesn't even fit.  At the time the motorcade went by, Norman and Jarman were on the 5th floor.

It's a weak possibility of an alibi at best.

Also, I'm curious why you think Thayer Waldo's "scared negro" is logically Givens.  I think it's way more logically Bonnie Ray Williams. He was on the 6th floor as late as 12:28.  Givens was gone by 11:50 unless you think Shields is lying.  But good dismantling of Givens' cigarette story.

[Walt Cakebread]

Thanks Pat.  Good reading.  I'm impressed at your thoroughness.  At least you acknowledge that it's merely a possibility that Oswald saw Norman and Jarman in the shipping area going to the elevators rather than Walt just declaring as a fact that Oswald said that.  But here's my problem with that.  Kelley independently recalled Oswald saying he ate his lunch with them.  Is that just a coincidence, or is it more likely that Oswald said something about having lunch with them?  As you point out, Oswald may very well have had lunch at the same time as Norman (but not Jarman) in the domino room, and he may very well have seen them together immediately before or after that, but that would have been much earlier (around noon).  Also, while it's possible that somebody in the domino room could see someone walking between the back door and the elevators, there is a pretty small area of the domino room that has a sight line there through the domino room door (assuming it even stayed open), and there is a long bench with no table facing north in that area and possibly one seat at a small table against the east window (also facing north) in a position to see through the domino room door at all.  And no location has a view of the back door itself.  If he was eating or even reading the newspaper, he would probably have been at a table.  If Oswald had really said anything remotely resembling seeing them through a door going through a different room some 50 feet away, why wasn't that reflected in the accounts of the interrogation?  It was either that he had lunch with them or they walked in or through the room (implying the room he was in).  Were they all just really lousy at following a conversation?  Fritz is the only one who indicates that this Norman/Jarman sighting happened at the time the motorcade went by, and that doesn't even fit.  At the time the motorcade went by, Norman and Jarman were on the 5th floor.

It's a weak possibility of an alibi at best.

Also, I'm curious why you think Thayer Waldo's "scared negro" is logically Givens.  I think it's way more logically Bonnie Ray Williams. He was on the 6th floor as late as 12:28.  Givens was gone by 11:50 unless you think Shields is lying.  But good dismantling of Givens' cigarette story.

If he (Lee Oswald)  was eating or even reading the newspaper, he would probably have been at a table.  If Oswald had really said anything remotely resembling seeing them through a door going through a different room some 50 feet away, why wasn't that reflected in the accounts of the interrogation?

You're a fool.....Ir should be obvious to you by now that Lee Oswald was being framed by Fritz and the conspirators in the DPD....

Initially Fritz jotted down Lee's replies to his questions......( though Fritz lied and said he never took any notes during the interrogation and then lied and said that the scribbled notes were jotted down days after the interrogation.)  You chose to believe Fritz ...so you're a fool.

Since Fritz was framing Lee Oswald.....He wouldn't have admitted that Lee said that he was alone in the Domino room.   

In my opinion Lee would not have wanted anybody to see him at the time he was supposed to be shooting at JFK....Therefore he probably stayed out of sight in the restroom next to the Domino room.....from there he could see events like Jarman and Norman passing by but they couldn't see him.   

Kelley independently recalled Oswald saying he ate his lunch with them.

Kelly wasn't there for the interrogation.....Kelly was present for the Saturday interrogations .....And those interrogations were focused on discovering what Lee knew about the BY photo.

[John Iacoletti]

You're a fool.....Ir should be obvious to you by now that Lee Oswald was being framed by Fritz and the conspirators in the DPD....

. . . and yet you're relying on notes made by this "framer" to prop up your little fabrication.  All the notes say is "says  two negr. came in".  Everything else you just made up.  Insulting me doesn't change this fact.

Since Fritz was framing Lee Oswald.....He wouldn't have admitted that Lee said that he was alone in the Domino room.

...and you know what Lee said, how exactly?  Oh yeah, you made it up.
 

Kelly wasn't there for the interrogation.....Kelly was present for the Saturday interrogations .....And those interrogations were focused on discovering what Lee knew about the BY photo.

The conversation about the two negroes happened at the Saturday afternoon interrogation.  This is corroborated not only by Kelley, but Fritz and Bookhout as well.  If you want to claim that it happened some other time you better have some evidence beyond your fevered imagination.

[Walt Cakebread]

. . . and yet you're relying on notes made by this "framer" to prop up your little fabrication.  All the notes say is "says  two negr. came in".  Everything else you just made up.  Insulting me doesn't change this fact.

...and you know what Lee said, how exactly?  Oh yeah, you made it up.
 
The conversation about the two negroes happened at the Saturday afternoon interrogation.  This is corroborated not only by Kelley, but Fritz and Bookhout as well.  If you want to claim that it happened some other time you better have some evidence beyond your fevered imagination.

The conversation about the two negroes happened at the Saturday afternoon interrogation.

Perhaps you should read Fritz notes....  Oh that's right you're so naive that you believe that he took the notes days later..... but all of the items Fritz scribbled  are from the first interrogation at about 3:15 pm  11/22/63....

[John Iacoletti]

The conversation about the two negroes happened at the Saturday afternoon interrogation.

Perhaps you should read Fritz notes....  Oh that's right you're so naive that you believe that he took the notes days later..... but all of the items Fritz scribbled  are from the first interrogation at about 3:15 pm  11/22/63....

What are you smoking?  The note with the "say two negr. came in" notation says "morning 23rd" at the top.

[Walt Cakebread]

What are you smoking?  The note with the "say two negr. came in" notation says "morning 23rd" at the top.

The note with the "say two negr. came in" notation says "morning 23rd" at the top.

Thank you.....Now... What is the word immediately following the entry?   It looks like... ASK?

IOW....Fritz noted that Lee told him that while he was there in the Domino room he saw two fellow employees come in and they were Negroes, and one was called Junior...... And Fritz wanted to remind himself to ask those two men if they had came in just prior to the shooting....

[John Iacoletti]

The note with the "say two negr. came in" notation says "morning 23rd" at the top.

Thank you.....Now... What is the word immediately following the entry?   It looks like... ASK?

IOW....Fritz noted that Lee told him that while he was there in the Domino room he saw two fellow employees come in and they were Negroes, and one was called Junior...... And Fritz wanted to remind himself to ask those two men if they had came in just prior to the shooting....

What's this?  Changing the subject because your fabrication about this happening at the interrogation on the 22nd fell flat?

And then injecting another fabrication?

"Ask ? for lunch says cheese sandwiches + apple"

Fritz asked Oswald what he had for lunch.