A straight line

[Andrew Mason]

I'm saying that the 40+ witnesses who recalled that the last two shots were closer than the first two were wrong. 54 other witnesses recalled differently.

Who are the 54 witnesses?  By my count, 6 said that the first two were closer and 10 thought they were about equally spaced.  45 said the last two were closer together.  See my paper on the shot pattern evidence.

Dave Powers just says that after the first shot the President moved to the left. That?s not much of a reaction.

Where do you see him move to the left before z222?  Where does JBC disappear from his view?

Moore said that all three shots were spaced at regular intervals.

Where did you get that? Moore did not mention shot spacing in his FBI statement, which is the only statement I have found. He said he heard the first shot when the President was at the Thornton Freeway sign and he could not see the President's car when the last two shots were fired: 24H534.

Nellie Connally said that there was less time between the first and the second than between the second and the third.

That is true. But she also said she did not look back after the second shot. She is looking back up to z269. So that conflicts where her impression of the shot spacing.

Hargis couldn't recall more than two shots.

Sorry about that. You are right. I was going by Stuart Galanor's page which said he heard 3 shots but he did recall only 2. He said things happened so fast that he may not have noticed if there were another 30 shots.

Hughes never specified anything about the shots. Betzner is a two shot witness. The real first shot is missing from his account. Phil Willis  said that all three shots were evenly spaced. Mary Woodward said that the first shot missed. Max Holland interprets Moore's statement differently than you. He says that Moore's highway marker was to the east of the one you believe it to be. Jean Newman recalled hearing only two shots. Hendrix saw Kennedy slump on the second shot. Dickerson didn't specify when the first shot was fired. Neither did Dorothy Garner. The other three never said how many shots they heard.

So all their evidence is wrong. Thanks for making my point that one has to make excuses why their evidence could be wrong. Why did they all imagine, falsely, that JFK reacted to the first shot? Why did none of them see JFK smile and wave after the first shot? Why did so many say he was smiling and waving before the first shot?

Rapid succession, quick succession, and very close together are all relative descriptions. They could mean two seconds , three, four or more.

?? Not likely. The spacing was described by Charles Brehm, who had experience with guns, that the three shots "were fired just about as quickly as an individual can manouver a bolt-action rifle" (22H837). Do you think 7.5 seconds and 5 seconds fits that description? How about 4 and 2.3?

Are you sure that the HSCA placed the wound on JBC 7.9 inches from his midline?  Baden's measurement was 6.5 inches from the midline. I thought that 7.5 inches would be about right. However, I think that I can still get the SBT to work with 7.9 inches from the midline.

20 cm: = 7.9 inches. 6 HSCA 48

What are his hands doing at z224?

They appear to be doing what Nellie and others described they did in response to the first shot.

[Tim Nickerson]

Who are the 54 witnesses?  By my count, 6 said that the first two were closer and 10 thought they were about equally spaced.  45 said the last two were closer together.  See my paper on the shot pattern evidence.

It was something that Dave Reitzes had posted on McAdams' forum. For the life of me, I cannot find it this evening. His compilation numbers were: 15 placed the first two shots closer together, 39 said that they were all evenly spaced , and 58 said that the last two were closer together.

Dave Powers just says that after the first shot the President moved to the left. That?s not much of a reaction. Where do you see him move to the left before z222?  Where does JBC disappear from his view?

Powers is a first shot hit witness.

Where did you get that? Moore did not mention shot spacing in his FBI statement, which is the only statement I have found. He said he heard the first shot when the President was at the Thornton Freeway sign and he could not see the President's car when the last two shots were fired: 24H534.

Larry Sneed, in No More Silence, quoted Moore as saying "I feel sure that there were three shots and they spaced at regular intervals."

So all their evidence is wrong. Thanks for making my point that one has to make excuses why their evidence could be wrong. Why did they all imagine, falsely, that JFK reacted to the first shot? Why did none of them see JFK smile and wave after the first shot? Why did so many say he was smiling and waving before the first shot?

I don't see how I made your point. Clearly you've misread what I said.  Why did approximately 40 witnesses report seeing the limo stop?

?? Not likely. The spacing was described by Charles Brehm, who had experience with guns, that the three shots "were fired just about as quickly as an individual can manouver a bolt-action rifle" (22H837). Do you think 7.5 seconds and 5 seconds fits that description? How about 4 and 2.3?

You left off the "take aim, and fire three shots."

Brehm has the second shot as the head shot.

20 cm: = 7.9 inches. 6 HSCA 48

They purportedly used Baden's report of his examination of Connally's scars to come up with the placements on that diagram.

157.In addition to the information that already had been analyzed concerning Kennedy's neck wound, derivation of this trajectory required placement of the location of Connally's entry wound to the back. At the committee's request, Connally agreed to have the position of his back wound redetermined by the Forensic Pathology Panel. His inshoot wound was described as being immediately above his right armpit. This description is essentially consistent with figure II-18. (JFK exhibit F-377.) (57)

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0027b.htm

(57) Memorandum from Dr. Michael Baden to the House Select Committee on Assassinations, Sept 8, 1978


That says Sept 8, whereas the actual letter is dated Sept 6.

ADDENDUM G

REPORT OF THE PHYSICAL EXAMINATION OF GOVERNOR JOHN R. CONNALLY--MEM ORANDUM BY MICHAEL M. BADEN, M.D., TO TIlE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ASSASSINATIONS. DATED SEPTEMBER 6, 1978

MEMORANDUM

To: Gary Cornwell, Esq. From. Michael Baden, M.D. Date: September 6, 1978.

Re Physical examination of Governor John Connally.

Pursuant to your arrangements I met with Governor Connally on September 6, 1978, at 2:05 p.m. In room 772 of the Mayflower Hotel in Washington, D.C. Also present were Mrs. Connally; Mr. Julian Reed, an associate of the Governor who had been with him on the day of the assassination of President Kennedy; and Mrs. Ida Jane Ross of your staff.

The Governor was very cooperative, but rushed, to catch a plane.

On removing his shirt, it was readily apparent that at the site of gunshot perforation of the upper right back there is now a 1 1/8-inch long horizontal pale well healed scar that is up to 3/8 inch wide centrally, with a lateral border slightly lower than the medial border (about 5 degrees). The medial margin is one-half inch superior to and five-eighths inch medial to the apex of the right posterior axilla. The lateral border is 6 inches to the right of the midline of the back and 4 3/4 inches below the shoulder line.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0125b.htm

Previously, I believed that the terms medial and lateral were mistakenly reversed by Baden. However, I now realize that "The lateral border is 6 inches to the right of the midline of the back" was really meant to be "The lateral border is 8 inches to the right of the midline of the back." That would place the midpoint of the 1 1/8" long scar at 7.5 inches to the right of the midline.

They appear to be doing what Nellie and others described they did in response to the first shot.

What was that exactly? The hands drop between Z224 AND Z225. I don't recall Nellie describing seeing that.

[Andrew Mason]

It was something that Dave Reitzes had posted on McAdams' forum. For the life of me, I cannot find it this evening. His compilation numbers were: 15 placed the first two shots closer together, 39 said that they were all evenly spaced , and 58 said that the last two were closer together.

I can guarantee you that those numbers are wrong.  I looked at every witness who heard the shots and i found only 6 who heard 1...2.....3 and 9 who said they were about equally-spaced. Over 40 recalled 1.......2....3 and many of those said volunteered that last two shots were in rapid succession/close together. In addition, there are witnesses who put the second shot around z270, such as Altgens, Nellie C., SA George Hickey, and SA Wm. Greer. 

Powers is a first shot hit witness.

Larry Sneed, in No More Silence, quoted Moore as saying "I feel sure that there were three shots and they spaced at regular intervals."

You are relying on an interview made 30 years afterward?!!

I don't see how I made your point. Clearly you've misread what I said.  Why did approximately 40 witnesses report seeing the limo stop?

We have gone over this before. In fact, there were only 8 witnesses who said the limo stopped. 19 said it slowed but did not stop and another 20 gave ambiguous statements about whether it stopped or slowed. See my analysis here.

You make my point by arguing that the witnesses did not observe what they said they observed. Your argument that they were wrong is not evidence that they observed what you suggest. The statistical significance of the consistent observations of the "first shot hit", "first shot after z191" and "second shot close to third shot" witnesses is impossible to explain as random error.  You need collusion of all those witnesses to explain how they all got their observations wrong in the same way.

....
Previously, I believed that the terms medial and lateral were mistakenly reversed by Baden. However, I now realize that "The lateral border is 6 inches to the right of the midline of the back" was really meant to be "The lateral border is 8 inches to the right of the midline of the back." That would place the midpoint of the 1 1/8" long scar at 7.5 inches to the right of the midline.

You are still going to be 2.5 inches out and probably 4.8 inches out and possibly as much as 7 inches out.

What was that exactly? The hands drop between Z224 AND Z225. I don't recall Nellie describing seeing that.

The hands stay in roughly that position for a while (going by memory).  The impression of many was that he was clutching at his throat.

[Tim Nickerson]

I can guarantee you that those numbers are wrong.  I looked at every witness who heard the shots and i found only 6 who heard 1...2.....3 and 9 who said they were about equally-spaced. Over 40 recalled 1.......2....3 and many of those said volunteered that last two shots were in rapid succession/close together. In addition, there are witnesses who put the second shot around z270, such as Altgens, Nellie C., SA George Hickey, and SA Wm. Greer.

Found it:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.assassination.jfk/_hY71ak_h3o

I count 15 in that who said that the first two shots were closer together. I would add Karen Westbrook to that number. In her recent interview with Stephen Fagin of the Sixth Floor Museum, she said that the first two shots were closer together.

You are relying on an interview made 30 years afterward?!!

I wouldn't say that I'm  relying on it. I'm just making note of it, that's all. It's worth considering. Particularly if it doesn't contradict something he said much earlier. The same goes for all of the Sneed interviews.

We have gone over this before. In fact, there were only 8 witnesses who said the limo stopped. 19 said it slowed but did not stop and another 20 gave ambiguous statements about whether it stopped or slowed. See my analysis here.

Yes we have gone over it before.  I don't count 40 but I count a lot more than 8.

You make my point by arguing that the witnesses did not observe what they said they observed. Your argument that they were wrong is not evidence that they observed what you suggest. The statistical significance of the consistent observations of the "first shot hit", "first shot after z191" and "second shot close to third shot" witnesses is impossible to explain as random error.  You need collusion of all those witnesses to explain how they all got their observations wrong in the same way.

Again, I don't understand how my pointing out that witnesses were wrong makes your point. It does just the opposite.

You are still going to be 2.5 inches out and probably 4.8 inches out and possibly as much as 7 inches out.

You have a poor memory. I've demonstrated to you in the past that I can make it fit. And that was using a lateral angle of 10.5 degrees, not the 9 degrees that you have offered. I'll show it to you again but let's see if we can agree on some numbers first.

- A lateral angle of 9 to 10.5 degrees.

- The bullet struck Kennedy at 2 inches to the right of his midline.

- the distance that the bullet travelled through Kennedy's neck was 6.5 inches

- The straight on (shortest) distance from the front of Kennedy's neck to Connally's back was about 24 inches.

- Connally was recessed further into the car than Kennedy 6.4 +/- 2.2 inches   -- pages 43 - 47 of "John Kennedy Assassination Film Analysis", ITEK corporation, May 2, 1976

- The thickness of Connally's torso, from the very back of his spine to the front of his sternum, was about 9 inches.

- Connally's torso was rotated to the right by 30 degrees.  (HSCA Appendix to Hearings - Volume VI, "The Trajectory Analysis",  prepared under the direction of Thomas N. Canning, with the assistance of Clyde C. Snow and C.S. McCamy.)

The hands stay in roughly that position for a while (going by memory).  The impression of many was that he was clutching at his throat.

At z224, his hands are not at his neck.

[Andrew Mason]

Found it:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.assassination.jfk/_hY71ak_h3o

I count 15 in that who said that the first two shots were closer together. I would add Karen Westbrook to that number. In her recent interview with Stephen Fagin of the Sixth Floor Museum, she said that the first two shots were closer together.

Thanks for the link.  I will study it further but a few comments:

Reitzes uses Pierce Allman as an "equal spacing" witness because Allman said the shots were well-spaced and distinct.  But many who recalled the 1......2...3 pattern also said the shots were distinct and described shots spaced 3 and 1.5 or 2 seconds apart, which could also be described as "well-spaced". 

Reitzes uses Harold Norman as an "equal spacing" witness on the basis of Norman's interview where he vocalizes the shot sounds:

But if you measure the spacing, he has the spacing at roughly 3:2 (at 8, 11 and 13 seconds) which is not equal.  Furthermore he was not asked about the spacing - he was asked what they sounded like.  His earlier WC statement refers to "I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots".  I don't see how one gets an equal spacing out of that evidence.

As far as Karen Westbrook is concerned, she describes the first two shots closer together and then refers to having heard that Jackie Kennedy also recalled that pattern as a kind of support for her recollection (at about 24:20 of her interview which is at

).  If she confidently recalled the 1..2....3 pattern why did she immediately refer to Jackie for support. She did not do that for her recollection of the number of shots or the location of the first shot or what JFK did in reaction to the first shot. (In fact, Jackie did not describe the shot spacing at all and was unsure of the number of shots). There is no record of Karen Westbrook describing the shot spacing prior to this 2013 interview, unfortunately.

Karen Westbrook did have an apparently clear recollection that the first shot occurred while Jackie was turned looking directly toward her brushing her hair away from her face and waving. That could not have occurred until at least z190 because Jackie is turned left or forward until z189. In fact, she identifies z202 as the time of the first shot (but that was done in a rather leading way by the interviewer).  And she says that JFK reacted to that first shot.

Again, I don't understand how my pointing out that witnesses were wrong makes your point. It does just the opposite.

The point I was making is that you need to do that to support the SBT.  One does not have to point to any body of evidence being wrong in order to support the 3 shot, 3 hit, one shooter conclusion.

[Jack Trojan]

- A lateral angle of 9 to 10.5 degrees.

- The bullet struck Kennedy at 2 inches to the right of his midline.

- the distance that the bullet travelled through Kennedy's neck was 6.5 inches

- The straight on (shortest) distance from the front of Kennedy's neck to Connally's back was about 24 inches.

- Connally was recessed further into the car than Kennedy 6.4 +/- 2.2 inches   -- pages 43 - 47 of "John Kennedy Assassination Film Analysis", ITEK corporation, May 2, 1976

- The thickness of Connally's torso, from the very back of his spine to the front of his sternum, was about 9 inches.

- Connally's torso was rotated to the right by 30 degrees.  (HSCA Appendix to Hearings - Volume VI, "The Trajectory Analysis",  prepared under the direction of Thomas N. Canning, with the assistance of Clyde C. Snow and C.S. McCamy.)

Even with a 12 degree angle (2 inches right of his midline), how did the MB travel thru JFK's spine and exit nose first then in 24 inches tumble into Connally?

At z224, his hands are not at his neck.

Was Connally's body in the correct position at z224 to receive all the MB wounds?

[Andrew Mason]

Even with a 12 degree angle (2 inches right of his midline), how did the MB travel thru JFK's spine and exit nose first then in 24 inches tumble into Connally?

It is not that difficult to re-create the positions of the car and occupants using the zfilm and using an accurate model of the limo.  From the SN, the angle to the car direction at z195 was about 13.5 degrees.  At z224 it was 9 degrees.  The separation between JFK and JBC was about 24 inches.  The wound in JBC's right armpit was 20 cm or 7.9 inches from his midline.  The exit wound in JFK's throat was .5 cm left of his (JFK's) midline. 

Do the math. The bullet traveling in a straight line from JFK's exit wound on a 9 degree angle will travel 3.8 inches or 9.5 cm farther left before it strikes JBC.  So for the bullet to strike JBC's right armpit, his right armpit had to be 10 cm farther left than JFK's midline.  So JBC's midline had to be about 30 cm farther left than JFK.  Even if his shoulders were turned quite a bit more than he appears to be turned in z225 and even if he was sitting 21 cm inboard of JFK (ITEK said it was probably 10.7 cm and that puts him right in the middle of the jump seat), that is not enough.  And that assumes the shot was at z225, an assumption that conflicts with a lot of consistent evidence.

On the other hand, if the first shot struck JFK (as 20+ witnesses recalled) and if it occurred between z191-z202 (which is where all the evidence places it), then with JBC's midline 4.2 inches or 10.7 cm left of JFK and with JBC turned about 60 degrees which moves his left shoulder/armpit forward by 17 cm (6.8 inches) and to the right by 10 cm (4 inches).  So the bullet travels 18 cm farther left after exiting JFK.  All JBC has to do is lean a bit forward in his seat and the bullet just missed his back on the left side. What does it strike?  What part of JBC's left side was struck?

Was Connally's body in the correct position at z224 to receive all the MB wounds?

No. His body was never in a position to receive all the wounds.  Besides, James Tague said he was struck by something on the second shot. That bullet was not CE399.

[Tim Nickerson]

Even with a 12 degree angle (2 inches right of his midline), how did the MB travel thru JFK's spine and exit nose first then in 24 inches tumble into Connally?

That's the T1 vertebrae.The single bullet passed above that level. You need to find an image of C7. Also keep in mind that Kennedy's torso was rotated about 5 degrees to the right and his head was turned about 60 degrees to the right. With a lateral angle of 9 degrees the bullet would have exited Kennedy about 1 inch to the right of his midline.

Was Connally's body in the correct position at z224 to receive all the MB wounds?

Yes it was.