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Author Topic: Proving the passage was clear.  (Read 17179 times)

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2019, 06:29:36 AM »
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Hine did a loop around the south and west corridor, then walked back toward the counter and in the middle centre desk, looking at entrance through which everyone normally re-entered and through which both Reid said she entered and Oswald left. They both have to pass within feet of her, right across her line of sight. Of course you could have Reid meet Oswald and then follow Oswald back out the front, to then reenter from the front.

They could have asked her how long she was away from her desk? (Her testimony on face value would tend to less than around 2 minutes to cover the actions she reported performing)
They could have included her in the timed trials? (Along with Adams and Styles)
(Oddly **cough cough** they only choose to time Baker and Reid not anyone that might throw out their timeline.)
They could have asked the people she thought Reid had re-entered with, if Reid had re-entered with them? (Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina , Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell)
They could have asked Reid if she left the area after seeing Oswald?

So many way to clear it up, so many ways they could have passed down to us a resolved situation. No, they choose to go with a maybe your mistaken about seeing Reid reenter with others but didn't set out to sort how how Reid and Hines fail to see each other.

Reid and Oswald could have both passed the hallway that runs parallel with the front of the building while Miss Hine was banging on the door to the South Western Publishing Co. office. They would not have been in her line of sight unless she was facing the east.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 06:30:11 AM by Tim Nickerson »

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2019, 06:29:36 AM »


Offline Anthony Clayden

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2019, 07:21:43 AM »
Tim,

Remember she watched the parade from the front south east window, then she checked one door, banged on the next door, and then headed back up a corridor that if Oswald crossed she would be looking straight at him.
Her actual path around the corridor when she wasn't in a position to see Oswald cross was only part of one side of the building, with 1 door check and 1 door banging. 
the walking part was likely under 10s, so she must have gone overboard on the door banging for your time frame to work.
Oswald would have to cross the corridor top part of the corridor after the 2nd floor lunch room encounter at around 100s to 120s past the shooting.
You also have to have Reid pass Oswald, go to her desk, watch him leave the area and then either leave again (un-testified exit, involving going around the counter etc) or have the both her Hine not see each other as Hine is crossing half the room back to front centre desk, where the phones were flashing.
Also Reid, the senior office staff,  comes in and ignores the unmanned phone desk (that her staff are responsible for) with flashing calls that Hine sees from across the room and hurries back to.

Of course again my question in my previous past could have solved these issues, but they weren't asked.
Again why not have her time trial? Why not ask the people she said entered with Reid?

Two people say they both entered an empty office space? Hine testifies to scurrying back to answer the phone across the office to the front desks. I can dream up ways to squeeze the data to make sense but as they say here, "they wouldn't pass the pub test".

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2019, 07:33:09 PM »
Tim,

Remember she watched the parade from the front south east window, then she checked one door, banged on the next door, and then headed back up a corridor that if Oswald crossed she would be looking straight at him.
Her actual path around the corridor when she wasn't in a position to see Oswald cross was only part of one side of the building, with 1 door check and 1 door banging. 
the walking part was likely under 10s, so she must have gone overboard on the door banging for your time frame to work.
Oswald would have to cross the corridor top part of the corridor after the 2nd floor lunch room encounter at around 100s to 120s past the shooting.
You also have to have Reid pass Oswald, go to her desk, watch him leave the area and then either leave again (un-testified exit, involving going around the counter etc) or have the both her Hine not see each other as Hine is crossing half the room back to front centre desk, where the phones were flashing.
Also Reid, the senior office staff,  comes in and ignores the unmanned phone desk (that her staff are responsible for) with flashing calls that Hine sees from across the room and hurries back to.

Of course again my question in my previous past could have solved these issues, but they weren't asked.
Again why not have her time trial? Why not ask the people she said entered with Reid?

Two people say they both entered an empty office space? Hine testifies to scurrying back to answer the phone across the office to the front desks. I can dream up ways to squeeze the data to make sense but as they say here, "they wouldn't pass the pub test".

She watched the parade from a window on the east side of the building. It was facing Houston street not Elm.  There are numerous possibilities with the timing of the three of them were after that.  Hine may have been making her way down the hallway toward the South Western Publishing Co office when Reid passed by behind her. Reid would have then entered the empty office and then encountered Oswald on his way through. Who knows what Reid did immediately after. She may have left the office for some other part of the floor. Oswald could have passed the hallway while Hines was at the South Western office door or when she was in the hallway leading to the back of the building.

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2019, 07:33:09 PM »


Offline Anthony Clayden

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2019, 10:21:45 PM »
She watched the parade from a window on the east side of the building. It was facing Houston street not Elm.  There are numerous possibilities with the timing of the three of them were after that.  Hine may have been making her way down the hallway toward the South Western Publishing Co office when Reid passed by behind her. Reid would have then entered the empty office and then encountered Oswald on his way through. Who knows what Reid did immediately after. She may have left the office for some other part of the floor. Oswald could have passed the hallway while Hines was at the South Western office door or when she was in the hallway leading to the back of the building.

Tim, agreed it was the window eastern side, just before the closet. (The most southern window she could access).
Agreed there are numerous possibilties to explain it, al of which could have been confirmed with the points I have previously posted.
From Hines testimony, Ball seems to infer maybe you just didn't see Reid reenter when she did.
The far more difficult question is if Hine was in the office, how did Reid miss someone in the front center desk answering phone calls on behalf of her other staff. (Remember Hine was covering for other woman).
Of course having Hine out of the office when Reid reentered is an easier thing to explain, (but if Reid was first, why didn't she attend to the phones),  which thy could have asked how long do you estimate you were out of the office? or done a renactment with her of her actions, or asked the people she said came in wih Reid, if Reid came in with them.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2019, 01:03:36 AM »
Regardless of whether the office space was large or not, Miss Hine was not in that office for some time after the shooting. Read her full deposition.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hine.htm



I don't believe this "Oswald escape route"....I believe that after the encounter with Truly and Baker Lee returned to the Domimo room by way of the NW stairs.

I don't believe he went into the office area and encountered Mrs Reid......

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2019, 01:03:36 AM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2019, 10:04:52 AM »
Why did not Dorothy Garner hear Roy Truly shout up at approx.70 sec posts shots from the ground floor at the rear elevator shaft, to send the elevator down?

Since the earliest time probable for Oswald or other shooter to have gone past the 4th floor landing, and down halfway the 1st leg of staircase going to 3rd floor, so as to be completely out of LOS, is approx. 53 sec post shots, then Dorothy Garner can not exit the office earlier or would have seen the shooter crossing the 4th floor landing.

But if Garner exited not until 53 sec post shots, then heard voices of V.Adams and Styles at a low decibel level, almost about to reach the ground floor, then why did Garner NOT hear the much higher decibel level of Mr Trulys voice SHOUTING UP the elevator shaft at 70 sec post shots?

Offline Anthony Clayden

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2019, 09:56:20 PM »
Zeon,

As best I can tell Garner was not near the lifts but nearer the windows on the west side.
however Dougherty who did claim to be near the lifts on the 5th did not hear Truly's call either.

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2019, 10:46:25 PM »
Zeon,

As best I can tell Garner was not near the lifts but nearer the windows on the west side.
however Dougherty who did claim to be near the lifts on the 5th did not hear Truly's call either.


Thank you, Anthony for reinforcing my skepticism that voices of 2 women, at normal decibel level, on that TSBD  L shaped rear staircase, could have been heard by Garner as far down as at ground level, ie: at 53 sec post shots. Therefore, it would appear for Garner to have heard Adams and Styles, would necessitate Garner must have exited office by about 35 to 40 seconds, just missing seeing Adams and Styles on the stairs, but not yet so distant that their voices could not be heard. This is one more reason to believe that Garner did in fact follow Adams and Styles  "almost immediately" as Garner has stated.

If only an experiment could have been conducted in the TSBD while the orginal condition of floors and the L shaped staircase existed, then Garner could be the "proof positive" that precludes the WC theory of descent of Oswald using the staircase. Alas, this is probably the reason for keeping Mrs Garner from WC testimony and suppressing one document. Why they did not destroy the Belin memo, is unclear, but perhaps someone decided it was too risky to do, so hiding it in archives was better option.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 05:06:56 PM by Zeon Mason »

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Re: Proving the passage was clear.
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2019, 10:46:25 PM »