CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?

[Walt Cakebread]

Just a quick question.... was it "Oswald's rifle" that was found at the TSBD ?

How do we know this for sure, or do we just assume it?

The rifle that was found well hidden beneath heavy boxes of books in the TSBD does NOT appear to be the same rifle that Lee was holding when Marina snapped the photo CE 133A.   

[Richard Smith]

Just a quick question.... was it "Oswald's rifle" that was found at the TSBD ?

How do we know this for sure, or do we just assume it?

You know all the evidence but dismiss it as the product of fakery, lies, or reject any logical inference that can be drawn from it (i.e. the impossible standard of proof).  But for fun Oswald's prints are on it.  It has the same serial number as a rifle sent to his PO Box.  That rifle was ordered under an alias linked to Oswald.  He is pictured holding a rifle.  There are experts who confirm that the rifle in those photos has the same identifying marks as the one in the TSBD.  There is no accounting for any other rifle belonging to Oswald except as the one found in the TSBD.  Marina, for example, confirmed that Oswald kept his rifle in a blanket in the Paine's garage.  That rifle is not in the blanket on 11.22.  In fifty plus years, no other rifle has been linked to him during this time period.  Oswald lied about not owning a rifle.  Something that only makes sense if he doesn't want to be connected to it.  Wonder why that could be?  Humor us though and state what evidence there should be that is missing from the record that would satisfy you of Oswald's ownership of the rifle?  Or are you arguing it is impossible to prove under any circumstances?

[John Iacoletti]

You know all the evidence but dismiss it as the product of fakery, lies, or reject any logical inference that can be drawn from it (i.e. the impossible standard of proof).  But for fun Oswald's prints are on it.

False claim.  Some prints were found near the trigger guard which were useless for identification purposes, and a single partial palmprint turned up a week later on an index card.

  It has the same serial number as a rifle sent to his PO Box.

False claim.  There is no evidence of any rifle being shipped through the postal service, delivered to any particular PO box, or picked up there by Oswald or anyone else.

  That rifle was ordered under an alias linked to Oswald.

False claim.  There is no evidence of "A. Hidell" ever having been used as an alias for Oswald.

  He is pictured holding a rifle.

Irrelevant.

  There are experts who confirm that the rifle in those photos has the same identifying marks as the one in the TSBD.

False claim.  One HSCA panel member thought he saw one mark on the rifle in an enlargement of a backyard photo (for which no negative exists) which he thought "has to tilt the scales in the direction" of it being the same rifle.
 

  There is no accounting for any other rifle belonging to Oswald except as the one found in the TSBD.

There is no accounting for THAT rifle belonging to Oswald either.

  Marina, for example, confirmed that Oswald kept his rifle in a blanket in the Paine's garage.

Six weeks earlier, Marina peeked in the end of a rolled up and tied blanket and saw part of a wooden stock that she took to be a rifle.

  That rifle is not in the blanket on 11.22.

Irrelevant if you don't know what rifle if any was ever in that blanket.

  Oswald lied about not owning a rifle.

Your only evidence that he "lied about not owning a rifle" is your unsubstantiated belief that he owned this rifle.  It's a circular argument.

  Something that only makes sense if he doesn't want to be connected to it.

Or he wasn't lying and didn't actually own a rifle.

[Richard Smith]

The contrarian has repeatedly suggested that there is doubt that Marina's testimony confirms Oswald's ownership of the rifle or that he kept the rifle in the blanket because in a single instance in response to a question about the rifle Marina characterized what she saw as "a wooden part of it" ("it" meaning the rifle in the context of the question being asked).  From this John has implied that she was not talking about a rifle but some other object made of wood and therefore Oswald may not have lied when he denied ownership of a rifle.  How about we look to the totality of Marina's testimony to see if there is ambiguity regarding whether she is referencing a rifle or some other wooden object?

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn about it? Did you see it some place in the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of time, where he read---where he kept his things, and that is where the rifle was.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any discussion with your husband about the rifle when you first saw it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course I asked him, "What do you need a rifle for? What do we need that for?"
He said that it would come in handy some time for hunting. And this was not too surprising because in Russia, too, we had a rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle later placed in a closet in the apartment at Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was always either in a corner, standing up in a corner or on a shelf.

Mr. RANKIN. Is this rifle at Neely Street the only rifle that you know of that your husband had after you were married to him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any objection to having the rifle around?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him clean the rifle a number of times?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you help us by giving some estimate of the times as you remember it?
Mrs. OSWALD. About four times---about four or five times, I think.

Mr. RANKIN. When you testified about his practicing with the rifle, are you describing a period when you were still at Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where he practiced with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It seems to me a place called Lopfield.

Mr. RANKIN. How did it occur? Did he come to you and ask you to take the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was hanging up diapers, and he came up to me with the rifle and l was even a little scared, and he gave me the camera and asked me to press a certain button.

Mr. RANKIN. When he promised you that he would not do anything like that again, did you then believe him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not quite believe him inasmuch as the rifle remained in the house.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first notice the rifle at New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. As soon as I arrived in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice him take it away from your home there in New Orleans at any time?
 Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know for sure that he didn't. But I know that we had a kind of a porch with a---screened-in porch, and I know that sometimes evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. I don't know what he did with it. I came there by chance once and saw him just sitting there with his rifle. I thought he is merely sitting there and resting. Of course I didn't like these kind of little jokes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the station wagon?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle carried in some kind of a case when you went back with Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. After we arrived, I tried to put the bed, the child's crib together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. When you found the rifle wrapped in the blanket, upon your return to Mrs. Paine's, where was it located?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the garage, where all the rest of the things were.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle lying down or was it standing up on the butt end?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was lying down on the floor.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever check to see whether the rifle was in the blanket?
 Mrs. OSWALD. I never checked to see that. There was only once that I was interested in finding out what was in that blanket, and I saw that it was a rifle.
 Mr. RANKIN. When was that?
 Mrs. OSWALD. About a week after I came from New Orleans.
 Mr. RANKIN. And then you found that the rifle was in the blanket, did you?
 Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I saw the wooden part of it, the wooden stock.

[Martin Weidmann]

The contrarian has repeatedly suggested that there is doubt that Marina's testimony confirms Oswald's ownership of the rifle or that he kept the rifle in the blanket because in a single instance in response to a question about the rifle Marina characterized what she saw as "a wooden part of it" ("it" meaning the rifle in the context of the question being asked).  From this John has implied that she was not talking about a rifle but some other object made of wood and therefore Oswald may not have lied when he denied ownership of a rifle.  How about we look to the totality of Marina's testimony to see if there is ambiguity regarding whether she is referencing a rifle or some other wooden object?

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn about it? Did you see it some place in the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of time, where he read---where he kept his things, and that is where the rifle was.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any discussion with your husband about the rifle when you first saw it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course I asked him, "What do you need a rifle for? What do we need that for?"
He said that it would come in handy some time for hunting. And this was not too surprising because in Russia, too, we had a rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle later placed in a closet in the apartment at Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was always either in a corner, standing up in a corner or on a shelf.

Mr. RANKIN. Is this rifle at Neely Street the only rifle that you know of that your husband had after you were married to him?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any objection to having the rifle around?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him clean the rifle a number of times?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you help us by giving some estimate of the times as you remember it?
Mrs. OSWALD. About four times---about four or five times, I think.

Mr. RANKIN. When you testified about his practicing with the rifle, are you describing a period when you were still at Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where he practiced with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It seems to me a place called Lopfield.

Mr. RANKIN. How did it occur? Did he come to you and ask you to take the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was hanging up diapers, and he came up to me with the rifle and l was even a little scared, and he gave me the camera and asked me to press a certain button.

Mr. RANKIN. When he promised you that he would not do anything like that again, did you then believe him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not quite believe him inasmuch as the rifle remained in the house.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first notice the rifle at New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. As soon as I arrived in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice him take it away from your home there in New Orleans at any time?
 Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know for sure that he didn't. But I know that we had a kind of a porch with a---screened-in porch, and I know that sometimes evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. I don't know what he did with it. I came there by chance once and saw him just sitting there with his rifle. I thought he is merely sitting there and resting. Of course I didn't like these kind of little jokes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the station wagon?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle carried in some kind of a case when you went back with Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. After we arrived, I tried to put the bed, the child's crib together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. When you found the rifle wrapped in the blanket, upon your return to Mrs. Paine's, where was it located?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the garage, where all the rest of the things were.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle lying down or was it standing up on the butt end?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was lying down on the floor.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever check to see whether the rifle was in the blanket?
 Mrs. OSWALD. I never checked to see that. There was only once that I was interested in finding out what was in that blanket, and I saw that it was a rifle.
 Mr. RANKIN. When was that?
 Mrs. OSWALD. About a week after I came from New Orleans.
 Mr. RANKIN. And then you found that the rifle was in the blanket, did you?
 Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I saw the wooden part of it, the wooden stock.

So, why did Marina not mention a rifle in Ruth Paine's garage in her first day affidavit and only talked about Oswald owning a rifle in Russia?

[John Iacoletti]

The contrarian has repeatedly suggested that there is doubt that Marina's testimony confirms Oswald's ownership of the rifle or that he kept the rifle in the blanket because in a single instance in response to a question about the rifle Marina characterized what she saw as "a wooden part of it" ("it" meaning the rifle in the context of the question being asked).  From this John has implied that she was not talking about a rifle but some other object made of wood and therefore Oswald may not have lied when he denied ownership of a rifle.

Hang on, Clousseau.  Is it your argument that if Oswald ever owned a rifle that he necessarily owned one on November 22, 1963?  Really?  And is it also your argument that if Marina saw a rifle in New Orleans or at Neeley, then it was necessarily the same thing she saw the end of in a tied, wrapped up blanket?  And is it also your argument that if Marina saw a rifle in New Orleans or at Neeley, then therefore it was the C2766 Mannlicher Carcano?

You quoted the relevant part yourself and failed to understand the significance.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever check to see whether the rifle was in the blanket?
 Mrs. OSWALD. I never checked to see that. There was only once that I was interested in finding out what was in that blanket, and I saw that it was a rifle.
 Mr. RANKIN. When was that?
 Mrs. OSWALD. About a week after I came from New Orleans.
 Mr. RANKIN. And then you found that the rifle was in the blanket, did you?
 Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I saw the wooden part of it, the wooden stock.

She didn't see that it was a rifle, she saw the end of it and assumed that it was a rifle.  Rankin took advantage of her non-proficiency in English to manipulate her with leading questions.  But whether it was a rifle or not, that was 6 weeks earlier, and may or may not have been the C2766 Mannlicher Carcano.

Nobody is actually arguing that Oswald never had a rifle.  That's just a strawman you invented to make yourself feel smart and superior.

[Bill Chapman]

False claim.  Some prints were found near the trigger guard which were useless for identification purposes, and a single partial palmprint turned up a week later on an index card.

False claim.  There is no evidence of any rifle being shipped through the postal service, delivered to any particular PO box, or picked up there by Oswald or anyone else.

False claim.  There is no evidence of "A. Hidell" ever having been used as an alias for Oswald.

Irrelevant.

False claim.  One HSCA panel member thought he saw one mark on the rifle in an enlargement of a backyard photo (for which no negative exists) which he thought "has to tilt the scales in the direction" of it being the same rifle.
 
There is no accounting for THAT rifle belonging to Oswald either.

Six weeks earlier, Marina peeked in the end of a rolled up and tied blanket and saw part of a wooden stock that she took to be a rifle.

Irrelevant if you don't know what rifle if any was ever in that blanket.

Your only evidence that he "lied about not owning a rifle" is your unsubstantiated belief that he owned this rifle.  It's a circular argument.

Or he wasn't lying and didn't actually own a rifle.

Maybe the sociopathic little snot separated himself from his Hidell (rhymes with Fidel) personality and truly believed that he, Lee Harvey Oswald (AKA Dirty Harvey), had indeed never bought a rifle 

By first-day affidavit, Marina stated that 'two weeks ago', she opened the blanket and saw a rifle. She couldn't say for sure if it was the same rifle she had been shown. BFD. So she wasn't exactly an aficionado on boys' toys. Whatever the rifle she had seen in the blanket was gone 'today' stated Marina.

Any clues for you there, Sherlock?

[Bill Chapman]

So, why did Marina not mention a rifle in Ruth Paine's garage in her first day affidavit and only talked about Oswald owning a rifle in Russia?

Wrong