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Author Topic: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?  (Read 179471 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #96 on: June 10, 2019, 01:02:03 AM »
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Where did Wade say that an expert with DPD had tentatively identified the palm print on the rifle as Oswald's?

Direct quote of Wade in “Witness to History” by Hugh Aynesworth page 77. - “They had a palm print on the gun, for example, and an expert who tentatively identified it [as Oswald’s].”

Please stop seeing things that aren't there. Your claim was that Wade was told about the palmprint and a tentative match by an expert on 11/22/63.

Your quote from Aynesworth's book (published in 2013) doesn't show that at all. All it shows is that Wade remembered  that (at some point in time) they had a palm print on the gun which an expert tentatively identified as Oswald, but he doesn't say this was on 11/22/63 as you claimed.

All you have so far is Wade's WC testimony from 1964, a vague quote of an unnamed investigator in a newspaper article and another vague quote of Wade in a book in 2013 and none of it actually supports your claim. Now you can continue using scraps of vague statements and quotes to make up your own version as much as you want, but the actual evidence makes it simply impossible for Wade or anybody else having been informed about the print on the index card on 11/22/63.

We know that Day kept the print to himself until he was ordered to release all the evidence to the FBI on 11/26/63. Had he already made a match of the print with Oswald, he would have had no reason at all to keep it to himself. It would more likely have been all over the media as the proverbial smoking gun. Instead, Day doesn't even mention a match to the FBI! Latona of the FBI lab received the print on 11/29/63 and it was he who made the tentative match.

Bottom line; your story simply does not compute with the timeline of known events.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 02:18:04 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #96 on: June 10, 2019, 01:02:03 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #97 on: June 10, 2019, 02:12:39 AM »
Please stop seeing things that aren't there. Your claim was that Wade was told about the palmprint and a tentative match by an expert on 11/22/63.

Your quote from Aynesworth's book doesn't show that at all. All it shows that Wade remembered that (at some point in time) they had a palm print on the gun which an expert tentatively identified as Oswald, but he doesn't say this was on 11/22/63 as you claimed.

Now you can continue using scraps of vague statements and quotes to make up your own version as much as you want, but the actual evidence makes it simply impossible for Wade or anybody else having been informed about the print on the index card on 11/22/63.

Day kept the print to himself until he was ordered to release all the evidence to the FBI on 11/26/63. Had he already made a match of the print with Oswald, he would have had no reason at all to keep it to himself. It would more likely have been all over the media as the proverbial smoking gun. Instead, Day mentions nothing about a match to the FBI. Latona of the FBI lab received the print on 11/29/63 and it was he who made the tentative match.

Bottom line; your story simply does not compute with the timeline of known events.

You are dead wrong. Aynesworth is describing Wade’s activities on 11/22/63. The complete Wade quote reads “The investigators told me that night they had evidence against Oswald that was stronger than it turned out to be. They had a palm print on the gun, for example, and an expert who tentatively identified it [as Oswald’s]. But I don’t think the FBI ever did identify that palm print.”


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #98 on: June 10, 2019, 02:25:04 AM »
You are dead wrong. Aynesworth is describing Wade’s activities on 11/22/63. The complete Wade quote reads “The investigators told me that night they had evidence against Oswald that was stronger than it turned out to be. They had a palm print on the gun, for example, and an expert who tentatively identified it [as Oswald’s]. But I don’t think the FBI ever did identify that palm print.”

Aynesworth's book was published in 2013. 50 years after the actual event and 12 years after Wade died at age 86.

So where did the "quote" come from?   

Btw;

Mr. EISENBERG. So as of November 23, you had not found an identifiable print on Exhibit 139?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a small white card marked with certain initials and with a date, "11-22-63." There is a cellophane wrapping, cellophane tape across this card with what appears to be a fingerprint underneath it, and the handwriting underneath that tape is "off underside of gun barrel near end of foregrip C 2766," which I might remark parenthetically is the serial number of Exhibit 139. I ask you whether you are familiar with this item which I hand you, this card?
Mr. LATONA. Yes; I am familiar with this particular exhibit.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe to us what that exhibit consists of, that item rather?
Mr. LATONA. This exhibit Or this item is a lift of a latent palmprint which was evidently developed with black powder.
Mr. EISENBERG. And when did you receive this item?
Mr. LATONA. I received this item November 29, 1963.

<>

Mr. EISENBERG. Who did you get this exhibit, this lift from?
Mr. LATONA. This lift was referred to us by the FBI Dallas office.
Mr. EISENBERG. And were you told anything about its origin?
Mr. LATONA. We were advised that this print had been developed by the Dallas Police Department, and, as the lift itself indicates, from the underside of the gun barrel near the end of the foregrip.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, may I say for the record that at a subsequent point we will have the testimony of the police officer of the Dallas police who developed this print, and made the lift; and I believe that the print was taken from underneath the portion of the barrel which is covered by the stock. Now, did you attempt to identify this print which shows on the lift Exhibit 637?
Mr. LATONA. Yes; I did.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you succeed in making identification?
Mr. LATONA. On the basis of my comparison, I did effect an identification.
Mr. EISENBERG. And whose print was that, Mr. Latona?
Mr. LATONA. The palmprint which appears on the lift was identified by me as the right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, as I understand it, on November 23, therefore, the FBI had not succeeded in making an identification of a fingerprint or palmprint on the rifle, but several days later by virtue of the receipt of this lift, which did not come with the weapon originally, the FBI did succeed in identifying a print on Exhibit 139?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
Mr. EISENBERG. Which may explain any inconsistent or apparently inconsistent statements, which I believe appeared in the press, as to an identification?
Mr. LATONA. We had no personal knowledge of any palmprint having been developed on the rifle.
The only prints that we knew of were the fragmentary prints which I previously pointed out had been indicated by the cellophane on the trigger guard. There was no indication on this rifle as to the existence of any other prints. This print which indicates it came from the underside of the gun barrel, evidently the lifting had been so complete that there was nothing left to show any marking on the gun itself as to the existence of such even an attempt on the part of anyone else to process the rifle.


Mr. BELIN. The wood. You removed the wood, and then underneath the wood is where you found the print?
Mr. DAY. On the bottom side of the barrel which was covered by the wood, I found traces of a palmprint. I dusted these and tried lifting them, the prints, with scotch tape in the usual manner. A faint palmprint came off. I could still see traces of the print under the barrel and was going to try to use photography to bring off or bring out a better print. About this time I received instructions from the chief's office to go no further with the processing, it was to be released to the FBI for them to complete. I did not process the underside of the barrel under the scopic sight, did not get to this area of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what Commission Exhibit No. 637 is?
Mr. DAY. This is the trace of palmprint I lifted off of the barrel of the gun after I had removed the wood.
Mr. BELIN. Does it have your name on it or your handwriting?
Mr. DAY. It has the name "J. C. Day," and also "11/22/63" written on it in my writing off the underside gun barrel near the end of foregrip, C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. When you lift a print is it then harder to make a photograph of that print after it is lifted or doesn't it make any difference?
Mr. DAY. It depends. If it is a fresh print, and by fresh I mean hadn't been there very long and dried, practically all the print will come off and there will be nothing left. If it is an old print, that is pretty well dried, many times you can still see it after the lift. In this case I could still see traces of print on that barrel.
Mr. BELIN. Did you do anything with the other prints or partial prints that you said you thought you saw?
Mr. DAY. I photographed them only. I did not try to lift them.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have those photographs, sir? I will mark the two photographs which you have just produced Commission Exhibits 720 and 721. I will ask you to state what these are.
Mr. DAY. These are prints or pictures, I should say, of the latent--of the traces of prints on the side of the magazine housing of the gun No. C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. Were those prints in such condition as to be identifiable, if you know?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; I could not make positive identification of these prints.

Now tell me, who was the expert that made the tentative match with Oswald on 11/22/63
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 02:40:41 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #98 on: June 10, 2019, 02:25:04 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #99 on: June 10, 2019, 02:30:20 AM »
Aynesworth's book was published in 2013. 50 years after the actual event and 12 years after Wade died at age 86.

So where did the "quote" come from?

Aynesworth is still around, ask him. The quote is inside quotation marks. So it appears to be a direct quote of Wade.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #100 on: June 10, 2019, 02:42:52 AM »
Aynesworth is still around, ask him. The quote is inside quotation marks. So it appears to be a direct quote of Wade.

"Appears to be" is good enough for you?

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #100 on: June 10, 2019, 02:42:52 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #101 on: June 10, 2019, 11:13:30 AM »
"Appears to be" is good enough for you?

There are quite a few other quotes of Wade in this section of the book. They are all accompanied with a comment like: Wade later said to me, or Wade recollected, etc. The  quote that we have been discussing is preceded by: He recalled that the evidence....

Yes, Aynesworth is a well respected journalist. I am satisfied.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #102 on: June 10, 2019, 02:03:15 PM »
There are quite a few other quotes of Wade in this section of the book. They are all accompanied with a comment like: Wade later said to me, or Wade recollected, etc. The  quote that we have been discussing is preceded by: He recalled that the evidence....

Yes, Aynesworth is a well respected journalist. I am satisfied.

That explains why you are a LNr…. no desire to ask the hard questions
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 02:04:19 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #103 on: June 10, 2019, 09:31:08 PM »
That explains why you are a LNr…. no desire to ask the hard questions

You are dead wrong (again). Long before you posted your remark I contacted Hugh Aynesworth today on the telephone. And yes he confirmed that those are direct quotes of Henry Wade in his book. He also told me that James Ewell was the top police reporter for the Dallas Morning News and Carl Freund was a top notch reporter. And that he believed they reported what they were told. He also told me that he saw Henry Wade not long before he passed away and that Wade was still of sound mind.


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Re: CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?
« Reply #103 on: June 10, 2019, 09:31:08 PM »