CT's, how did Oswald's rifle end up on the 6th floor?

[Zeon Mason]

Aynesworth's book was published in 2013. 50 years after the actual event and 12 years after Wade died at age 86.

So where did the "quote" come from?   

Btw;

Mr. EISENBERG. So as of November 23, you had not found an identifiable print on Exhibit 139?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a small white card marked with certain initials and with a date, "11-22-63." There is a cellophane wrapping, cellophane tape across this card with what appears to be a fingerprint underneath it, and the handwriting underneath that tape is "off underside of gun barrel near end of foregrip C 2766," which I might remark parenthetically is the serial number of Exhibit 139. I ask you whether you are familiar with this item which I hand you, this card?
Mr. LATONA. Yes; I am familiar with this particular exhibit.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe to us what that exhibit consists of, that item rather?
Mr. LATONA. This exhibit Or this item is a lift of a latent palmprint which was evidently developed with black powder.
Mr. EISENBERG. And when did you receive this item?
Mr. LATONA. I received this item November 29, 1963.

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Mr. EISENBERG. Who did you get this exhibit, this lift from?
Mr. LATONA. This lift was referred to us by the FBI Dallas office.
Mr. EISENBERG. And were you told anything about its origin?
Mr. LATONA. We were advised that this print had been developed by the Dallas Police Department, and, as the lift itself indicates, from the underside of the gun barrel near the end of the foregrip.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, may I say for the record that at a subsequent point we will have the testimony of the police officer of the Dallas police who developed this print, and made the lift; and I believe that the print was taken from underneath the portion of the barrel which is covered by the stock. Now, did you attempt to identify this print which shows on the lift Exhibit 637?
Mr. LATONA. Yes; I did.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you succeed in making identification?
Mr. LATONA. On the basis of my comparison, I did effect an identification.
Mr. EISENBERG. And whose print was that, Mr. Latona?
Mr. LATONA. The palmprint which appears on the lift was identified by me as the right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, as I understand it, on November 23, therefore, the FBI had not succeeded in making an identification of a fingerprint or palmprint on the rifle, but several days later by virtue of the receipt of this lift, which did not come with the weapon originally, the FBI did succeed in identifying a print on Exhibit 139?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
Mr. EISENBERG. Which may explain any inconsistent or apparently inconsistent statements, which I believe appeared in the press, as to an identification?
Mr. LATONA. We had no personal knowledge of any palmprint having been developed on the rifle. The only prints that we knew of were the fragmentary prints which I previously pointed out had been indicated by the cellophane on the trigger guard. There was no indication on this rifle as to the existence of any other prints. This print which indicates it came from the underside of the gun barrel, evidently the lifting had been so complete that there was nothing left to show any marking on the gun itself as to the existence of such even an attempt on the part of anyone else to process the rifle.


Mr. BELIN. The wood. You removed the wood, and then underneath the wood is where you found the print?
Mr. DAY. On the bottom side of the barrel which was covered by the wood, I found traces of a palmprint. I dusted these and tried lifting them, the prints, with scotch tape in the usual manner. A faint palmprint came off. I could still see traces of the print under the barrel and was going to try to use photography to bring off or bring out a better print. About this time I received instructions from the chief's office to go no further with the processing, it was to be released to the FBI for them to complete. I did not process the underside of the barrel under the scopic sight, did not get to this area of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what Commission Exhibit No. 637 is?
Mr. DAY. This is the trace of palmprint I lifted off of the barrel of the gun after I had removed the wood.
Mr. BELIN. Does it have your name on it or your handwriting?
Mr. DAY. It has the name "J. C. Day," and also "11/22/63" written on it in my writing off the underside gun barrel near the end of foregrip, C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. When you lift a print is it then harder to make a photograph of that print after it is lifted or doesn't it make any difference?
Mr. DAY. It depends. If it is a fresh print, and by fresh I mean hadn't been there very long and dried, practically all the print will come off and there will be nothing left. If it is an old print, that is pretty well dried, many times you can still see it after the lift. In this case I could still see traces of print on that barrel.
Mr. BELIN. Did you do anything with the other prints or partial prints that you said you thought you saw?
Mr. DAY. I photographed them only. I did not try to lift them.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have those photographs, sir? I will mark the two photographs which you have just produced Commission Exhibits 720 and 721. I will ask you to state what these are.
Mr. DAY. These are prints or pictures, I should say, of the latent--of the traces of prints on the side of the magazine housing of the gun No. C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. Were those prints in such condition as to be identifiable, if you know?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; I could not make positive identification of these prints.

Now tell me, who was the expert that made the tentative match with Oswald on 11/22/63

Just wanted to point out here,that even IF it is true that Day lifted a print as he said, that by his own opinion here, the print was NOT a fresh print, because some of the print he could still see on the barrel after having lifted it with tape.

So even if it IS Oswalds MC rifle, that print on the barrel if it ever existed at all, could be weeks, or months old and thus NO proof that Oswald had assembled the rifle THAT DAY of Nov 22/63

[John Mytton]

Just wanted to point out here,that even IF it is true that Day lifted a print as he said, that by his own opinion here, the print was NOT a fresh print, because some of the print he could still see on the barrel after having lifted it with tape.

So even if it IS Oswalds MC rifle, that print on the barrel if it ever existed at all, could be weeks, or months old and thus NO proof that Oswald had assembled the rifle THAT DAY of Nov 22/63

The 3 colours of fibers that made up Oswald's brown shirt, (the same shirt Oswald wore THAT DAY of Nov 22/63), were matched to fibers found on Oswald's rifle. Oswald's rifle was found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.



On the 22nd many photos were taken of Oswald's rifle's trigger guard and later Scalise used all of the photos of varying contrast to conclusively prove that the print were Oswald's. I can't insert the youtube video but is easily found "Vincent Scalise Identifies Lee Oswald Prints on Trigger Guard".



JohnM

[John Iacoletti]

The 3 colours of fibers that made up Oswald's brown shirt, (the same shirt Oswald wore THAT DAY of Nov 22/63), were matched to fibers found on Oswald's rifle. Oswald's rifle was found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

“Oswald’s rifle”. LOL.

Strangely enough, you forgot to include this part of Stombaugh’s testimony.

Mr. STOMBAUGH. There is just no way at this time to be able to positively state that a particular small group of fibers came from a particular source, because there just aren't enough microscopic characteristics present in these fibers.
We cannot say, "Yes, these fibers came from this shirt to the exclusion of all other shirts."

On the 22nd many photos were taken of Oswald's rifle's trigger guard and later Scalise used all of the photos of varying contrast to conclusively prove that the print were Oswald's.

Latona to the WC:

Mr. LATONA. I could see faintly ridge formations there. However, examination disclosed to me that the formations, the ridge formations and characteristics, were insufficient for purposes of either effecting identification or a determination that the print was not identical with the prints of people. Accordingly, my opinion simply was that the latent prints which were there were of no value.

Scalise, himself, to the HSCA:

“55. Latent fingerprint recovered from the trigger guard of a 6.5-millimeter, Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, serial no. C2766, processed at the Dallas Police Department. It is of no value for identification purposes.”

30 years later, Scalise looked at photos that Rusty Livingston pulled out of a briefcase and claimed that they were of the C2766 rifle and compared them to a fingerprint card that was claimed to be Oswald’s.

If these uncontrolled photos were authentic then not only did Scalise have access to the same photos in 1978, but both Latona and Scalise had access to the actual rifle to examine the prints directly.

[Walt Cakebread]

Just wanted to point out here,that even IF it is true that Day lifted a print as he said, that by his own opinion here, the print was NOT a fresh print, because some of the print he could still see on the barrel after having lifted it with tape.

So even if it IS Oswalds MC rifle, that print on the barrel if it ever existed at all, could be weeks, or months old and thus NO proof that Oswald had assembled the rifle THAT DAY of Nov 22/63

So even if it IS Oswalds MC rifle, that print on the barrel if it ever existed at all, could be weeks, or months old and thus NO proof that Oswald had assembled the rifle THAT DAY of Nov 22/63

That's a good point, Zeon...   However....  I'm 100% certain that the location seen in CE 637 is of the WOODEN foregrip ....The photo shows the bayonet slot at the right hand side of the exhibit.     Detective Day ( aka Barney Fife )  himself described the place as  on the bottom of the barrel about three inches back from the muzzle end of the wood stock   That description is right on the spot seen in the photo CE 637...   The back end of the bayonet slot is 3 & 1/2 inches to the rear of the muzzle end of the wooden stock . 

[Zeon Mason]

The 3 colours of fibers that made up Oswald's brown shirt, (the same shirt Oswald wore THAT DAY of Nov 22/63), were matched to fibers found on Oswald's rifle. Oswald's rifle was found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.



On the 22nd many photos were taken of Oswald's rifle's trigger guard and later Scalise used all of the photos of varying contrast to conclusively prove that the print were Oswald's. I can't insert the youtube video but is easily found "Vincent Scalise Identifies Lee Oswald Prints on Trigger Guard".



JohnM

Or there was contamination from having placed rifle, paperbag and blanket all together on Will Fritz desk

[Walt Cakebread]

Yes, I see the carved-out channel at the end of the wooden fore-stock that accommodates the blade of the folded-down bayonet. You are claiming that it caused the rectangular shape seen in the print lift (circled on right, below).



If the print came off the wooden stock, wouldn't there be some impression from the the stock's indentation for the forward sling-mount?

Maybe he meant the print was some three inches from the front end of the wooden stock if the barrel was placed back on the stock.

WOW!!...Thank you Mr Organ....I never expected a LNer to accomodate me and debate this point.  ( while providing photos also )

I see the carved-out channel at the end of the wooden fore-stock that accommodates the blade of the folded-down bayonet. You are claiming that it caused the rectangular shape seen in the print lift (circled on right, below).

Yes,..... But let me point out that the bayonet slot in the photo you posted appears to be wider than the bayonet groove on my carcanos....I own several carcanos and none of them have a groove like the groove on the carcano in the photo.    The grooves on my carcanos is not as wide and the sides are more parallel.   

If the print came off the wooden stock, wouldn't there be some impression from the the stock's indentation for the forward sling-mount?

No.... The photo of CE 637 doesn't show that portion of the rifles stock ( foregrip) The right hand side of the photo (CE 637 ) shows only about 3/4 of an inch of back end of the bayonet groove.

Maybe he meant the print was some three inches from the front end of the wooden stock if the barrel was placed back on the stock.

HUH?.... Three inches back from the forward end of the wooden stock is three inches .....Period!   It matters not if the metal barrel is fitted into the stock.

Day said that he spotted a print on THE SIDE of the barrel   ( The metal barrel) that disappeared beneath the wooden stock about three inches back from the forward end of the wooden stock.  ( Turns out his guess was pretty good.....The area circled is about 3  & 1 / 2 inches back from the end of the wooden stock.)

However....He said when he disassembled the rifle he saw the old print on the BOTTOM of the metal barrel and that's what he lifted.   

!) A man's palm print couldn't have wrapped half way around that 5 /8 inch metal barrel
2) Day said the print was on the BOTTOM of the barrel ...he did not say that the print extended halfway around the barrel....
3) there is nothing on the metal barrel that would have created the two parallel lines.

Thank you so much for posting the photo....

[Walt Cakebread]

Yes, I see the carved-out channel at the end of the wooden fore-stock that accommodates the blade of the folded-down bayonet. You are claiming that it caused the rectangular shape seen in the print lift (circled on right, below).



If the print came off the wooden stock, wouldn't there be some impression from the the stock's indentation for the forward sling-mount?

Maybe he meant the print was some three inches from the front end of the wooden stock if the barrel was placed back on the stock.

I believe that Detective  Day was incorporating his lift from the TSBD into the tale they invented, and he was recalling what he thought was a palm print on the wooden stock when he saw it while checking the rifle for prints in the TSBD just minutes after he pulled it from beneath the pallet.    He said the print was about three inches back from the forward end ( muzzle end) of the WOODEN stock.  If he had found a print on the metal barrel he logically would have used the muzzle or the bayonet lug as a reference point.   
 

[Walt Cakebread]

Yes, I see the carved-out channel at the end of the wooden fore-stock that accommodates the blade of the folded-down bayonet. You are claiming that it caused the rectangular shape seen in the print lift (circled on right, below).



If the print came off the wooden stock, wouldn't there be some impression from the the stock's indentation for the forward sling-mount?

Maybe he meant the print was some three inches from the front end of the wooden stock if the barrel was placed back on the stock.

let me point out that the bayonet slot in the photo you posted appears to be wider than the bayonet groove on my carcanos..

I think I know why the bayonet groove appears wider in the photo....  I believe the stock on the rifle in the photo has been sanded.....And the sanding rounded the sharp corners of the bayonet groove and that makes the groove appear to be wider than my carcanos.