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Author Topic: Oswald is the real assassin  (Read 14968 times)

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2019, 05:37:58 PM »
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Which, in turn, isn't nearly as cute as you trying to inform everybody what witnessess really saw and really thought

Says the guy who informs everybody that Frazier lied about the length of the package to cover his ass.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2019, 05:37:58 PM »


Offline Thomas Halle

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2019, 09:55:12 PM »
Thanks, John. Yep, the standard in American jurisprudence is "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" (a much higher "threshold" than "preponderance of evidence"), and the Burden of Proof does, indeed, lie with the Prosecution. In the Kennedy assassination case, the Prosecution (in the form of both Texas and Federal investigators, and--ultimately--in the form of the WC (in a kind of post mortem trial)) decided in 'a priori fashion that there was one, crazed killer, firing only THREE shots (from behind)(with no foreign involvement and no conspiracy). Like someone presenting a foolish "proof for the existence of God," the reasoning lies strongly along "Special Pleading" lines.

It is also very like the "SIGNATURE" behavior of members of a cult, who will provide a creed statement, then produce all kinds of "evidence," such as excerpts from scripture, or little parables in an attempt to bolster the "formula." This is the VERY antithesis of legitimate reasoning (as well as the scientific method and the principles of legit. criminal investigation). It is "backwards reasoning" and COMPLETELY and UTTERLY bogus. Put another way, the "default position" in this case should be that Mr. Oswald is innocent. Now let's see if the Prosecution can produce a case which "blows out of the water" this assumption. They are NEVER, EVER able to accomplish this. In fact, 'tis even worse than this in that all the other suspects were summarily released, there was ample manipulation of the evidence in this case (such as missing or altered photographic documentation, broken chains of possession, and impugned witness testimony) (and the sole suspect was denied "due process" (including legal representation)), and was never even properly arrested and indicted (for either Texas murder). Echoes from the Dreyfus case, anyone?

Finally, in this SNAFU of a case (a BLATANT 'burlesque of justice" with strong suggestion of duplicity on many fronts), Mr. Oswald was merely the "poor schnook" who was given the role of assigned perpetrator...the "schlemiel" who was to be the scapegoat, to put the case to bed...and assuage the fears of the traumatized American public.  ;D

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2019, 10:35:03 PM »
Says the guy who informs everybody that Frazier lied about the length of the package to cover his ass.

No, I suggested that would be the smart move; not that he actively went ahead and did it.
Go ahead, cite your claim. And don't pull an O'Brian by truncating my sentences.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 10:36:19 PM by Bill Chapman »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2019, 10:35:03 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2019, 10:55:17 PM »
Thanks, John. Yep, the standard in American jurisprudence is "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" (a much higher "threshold" than "preponderance of evidence"), and the Burden of Proof does, indeed, lie with the Prosecution. In the Kennedy assassination case, the Prosecution (in the form of both Texas and Federal investigators, and--ultimately--in the form of the WC (in a kind of post mortem trial)) decided in 'a priori fashion that there was one, crazed killer, firing only THREE shots (from behind)(with no foreign involvement and no conspiracy). Like someone presenting a foolish "proof for the existence of God," the reasoning lies strongly along "Special Pleading" lines.

It is also very like the "SIGNATURE" behavior of members of a cult, who will provide a creed statement, then produce all kinds of "evidence," such as excerpts from scripture, or little parables in an attempt to bolster the "formula." This is the VERY antithesis of legitimate reasoning (as well as the scientific method and the principles of legit. criminal investigation). It is "backwards reasoning" and COMPLETELY and UTTERLY bogus. Put another way, the "default position" in this case should be that Mr. Oswald is innocent. Now let's see if the Prosecution can produce a case which "blows out of the water" this assumption. They are NEVER, EVER able to accomplish this. In fact, 'tis even worse than this in that all the other suspects were summarily released, there was ample manipulation of the evidence in this case (such as missing or altered photographic documentation, broken chains of possession, and impugned witness testimony) (and the sole suspect was denied "due process" (including legal representation)), and was never even properly arrested and indicted (for either Texas murder). Echoes from the Dreyfus case, anyone?

Finally, in this SNAFU of a case (a BLATANT 'burlesque of justice" with strong suggestion of duplicity on many fronts), Mr. Oswald was merely the "poor schnook" who was given the role of assigned perpetrator...the "schlemiel" who was to be the scapegoat, to put the case to bed...and assuage the fears of the traumatized American public.  ;D

Names of shooters and conspirators, anyone?
What, too soon?

Feel free to name anyone other than [your shooter] who knew there was going to an attempt made on Kennedy that day.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 11:01:07 PM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2019, 11:39:58 PM »
Now define "reasonable".

Hardly. They didn't just sit on the first-day evidence. The FBI conducted thousands of interviews. There was just no solid conspiracy leads.

Then it would be impossible to arrest anyone. ....

The "investigation" was, almost from the third shot, tainted by a foregone conclusion. Maybe that satisfies you, but....




https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=45&search=ryder_and+scope#relPageId=238&tab=page


https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137474&relPageId=58&search=bowen_and


https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/29053767/fleta-l_-mantooth

Quote
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/29053767/fleta-l_-mantooth
   14 Aug 2008 (aged 85)
Olney, Young County, Texas, USA
BURIAL   Restland Cemetery
Olney, Young County, Texas, USA
Fleta was the daughter of Homer Richard and Magdalena Jeanetta (Baehr) Ryder and raised with one brother and six sisters. She married Roy Lee Mantooth December 13, 1963, in Albany, Texas. He preceded her in death on March 10, 1979.
......
At time of death she was survived by one son, Glenn Lewis Mantooth and wife, Nicole of Abilene, Texas; two daughters, Dixie Kirby and husband DeWayne of Olney, Texas and Gypsie Fomby and husband Dale of Clyde, Texas; one brother, Dial Ryder of Irving, Texas; four sisters, Magdelene Beanblossom of Decatur, Illinois, Iseaphene Kutz of Olney, Illinois, Marcella Farrar of Poteau, Oklahoma and Velma Douglas of Killeen, Texas.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?givenname=glenn&surname=bowen&birth_place=texas&birth_year_from=1954&birth_year_to=1956&mother_surname=ryder&count=20


Quote
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/63051718/roy-lee-mantooth
Roy Lee Mantooth
BIRTH   14 Feb 1922
DEATH   10 Mar 1979 (aged 57)
BURIAL   Abilene Municipal Cemetery
Abilene, Taylor County, Texas, USA....
....
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 11:44:31 PM by Tom Scully »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2019, 11:39:58 PM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2019, 08:00:13 PM »
The evidence of Oswald's guilt was overwhelming.  His guilt is a foregone conclusion from that perspective.  The authorities were understandably concerned that WWIII not be started on the basis of false rumors disseminated by kooks of the involvement of Russia or Cuba.  That is a perfectly legitimate reason to want the public to be satisfied of Oswald's guilt.  Not because it was false, but because it was true.

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2019, 10:10:06 PM »
The evidence of Oswald's guilt was overwhelming.  His guilt is a foregone conclusion from that perspective.  The authorities were understandably concerned that WWIII not be started on the basis of false rumors disseminated by kooks of the involvement of Russia or Cuba.  That is a perfectly legitimate reason to want the public to be satisfied of Oswald's guilt.  Not because it was false, but because it was true.

My reasonable doubt is reasonable, I can support that the investigation was shoddy in major areas....the rifle and scope,
and Bowen/Grossi and Bowen/Osborne, both reportedly seen with Oswald. How, other than the WC  report, do you come by such confidence?

You write as if you drive down the road, perceiving your view out of any window of your vehicle, especially the view through
the windshield is the world. You trust your view to provide you with discernment in when to, and the degree of steering and stop, go, speed level, and even when to switch wipers on and adjust wiper speed. You don't know what you don't know, an example is if you have no view of
the sky directly above from your driver's seat. You don't consider what you don't know, not even giving that blind spot/info gap a thought, maybe because you are quite satisfied from your experience avoiding accidents, or even close brushes with collision. You've got this!

The investigative responsibilities of  the WC, especially with foreign threats including an evenly nuclear weapons armed,  super power rival constantly competing for advantage on every level, were not similar to driving a car. A lone male suspect, a former USMC enlistee who
was freshly returned with a Soviet wife, a suspect with the weight of Priscilla Johnson's and Richard Schneider's impressions of this suspect's
mindset in the same week in Moscow in late 1959, misguided, diverging from expectations of a USMC volunteer like the ones they both were so accustomed to seeing in their dress blues, ever present in the Moscow embassy.

I don't know about you but I do my homework with the goal of learning what questions I need to ask. Reading the well supported evidence I already have posted in this thread, and considering the following, how would you rate the FBI's  handling of its purported "Bowen Investigation" component of the thorough inquiry the WC depended on the FBI to conduct and share the results of and be responsive to WC followup questions prompting additional investigation. The only key agency performing more incompetently, on the surface where no suspicion diminished  confidence in either agency, was  the CIA during the Sept, 1963 weekend the FBI and CIA seemed to conclude Oswald
had visited Mexico City during the allegedly unique window of time during and after which the CIA demonstrated an inability to conduct or
preserve per SOP,
either visual or audio surveillance of Oswald's alleged interactions with personnel in two foreign missions in MC, both under constant CIA supervised or conducted surveillance.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137390&relPageId=16&search=mantooth_and%20harboring


Because the FBI performed so poorly in investigating the Bowen dimension of their investigation, we'll never know why Dial Ryder
actually made his claim or why John Howard Bowen was born in Jan., 1880 on his WWI draft reg. document and in 1878 on his Death Cert.
and gravesttone. Consider the image I included below, proof impersonator Osborne gave FBI in Feb, 1964 same D.O.B. as on
WWI draft card.

Last year I called the SSA to report the 1962 death of John Howard Bowen.  The SSA clerk I talked with confirmed no notification of
Bowen's death was ever received. I informed the SSA clerk of 3 or 4 Bowen SS #s and pointed her to the Terminal, NC place of Bowen's
death and of the cemetery address. She informed me the SSA has a purge program of all recipients over 120 years old. Did SSA continue
to send checks to Bowen in Terminal, NC from his 1962 death until 2018?

https://www.wenFBIfailsChesterPA.png[/img]maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10715&search=morgue_and+chester#relPageId=2&tab=page

....and next page: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10715&search=morgue_and+chester#relPageId=3&tab=page


1915 Newspaper article:


Self Explanatory:


1934:


Quote
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/32875262/john-howard-bowen
John Howard Bowen
BIRTH   1878
DEATH   1962 (aged 83–84)
BURIAL   
Lawn Croft Cemetery
Linwood, Delaware County, Pennsylvania, USA

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/32875265/fannie-bowen
Fannie Hall Bowen
BIRTH   1885
DEATH   1934 (aged 48–49)
BURIAL   
Lawn Croft Cemetery
Linwood, Delaware County, Pennsylvania, USA

Google Maps Link



https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1141&relPageId=602&search=bowen_and%20montgomery
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 11:29:15 PM by Tom Scully »

Offline Mark A. Oblazney

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Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2019, 05:34:10 AM »
My reasonable doubt is reasonable, I can support that the investigation was shoddy in major areas....the rifle and scope,
and Bowen/Grossi and Bowen/Osborne, both reportedly seen with Oswald. How, other than the WC  report, do you come by such confidence?

You write as if you drive down the road, perceiving your view out of any window of your vehicle, especially the view through
the windshield is the world. You trust your view to provide you with discernment in when to, and the degree of steering and stop, go, speed level, and even when to switch wipers on and adjust wiper speed. You don't know what you don't know, an example is if you have no view of
the sky directly above from your driver's seat. You don't consider what you don't know, not even giving that blind spot/info gap a thought, maybe because you are quite satisfied from your experience avoiding accidents, or even close brushes with collision. You've got this!

The investigative responsibilities of  the WC, especially with foreign threats including an evenly nuclear weapons armed,  super power rival constantly competing for advantage on every level, were not similar to driving a car. A lone male suspect, a former USMC enlistee who
was freshly returned with a Soviet wife, a suspect with the weight of Priscilla Johnson's and Richard Schneider's impressions of this suspect's
mindset in the same week in Moscow in late 1959, misguided, diverging from expectations of a USMC volunteer like the ones they both were so accustomed to seeing in their dress blues, ever present in the Moscow embassy.

I don't know about you but I do my homework with the goal of learning what questions I need to ask. Reading the well supported evidence I already have posted in this thread, and considering the following, how would you rate the FBI's  handling of its purported "Bowen Investigation" component of the thorough inquiry the WC depended on the FBI to conduct and share the results of and be responsive to WC followup questions prompting additional investigation. The only key agency performing more incompetently, on the surface where no suspicion diminished  confidence in either agency, was  the CIA during the Sept, 1963 weekend the FBI and CIA seemed to conclude Oswald
had visited Mexico City during the allegedly unique window of time during and after which the CIA demonstrated an inability to conduct or
preserve per SOP,
either visual or audio surveillance of Oswald's alleged interactions with personnel in two foreign missions in MC, both under constant CIA supervised or conducted surveillance.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137390&relPageId=16&search=mantooth_and%20harboring


Because the FBI performed so poorly in investigating the Bowen dimension of their investigation, we'll never know why Dial Ryder
actually made his claim or why John Howard Bowen was born in Jan., 1880 on his WWI draft reg. document and in 1878 on his Death Cert.
and gravesttone. Consider the image I included below, proof impersonator Osborne gave FBI in Feb, 1964 same D.O.B. as on
WWI draft card.

Last year I called the SSA to report the 1962 death of John Howard Bowen.  The SSA clerk I talked with confirmed no notification of
Bowen's death was ever received. I informed the SSA clerk of 3 or 4 Bowen SS #s and pointed her to the Terminal, NC place of Bowen's
death and of the cemetery address. She informed me the SSA has a purge program of all recipients over 120 years old. Did SSA continue
to send checks to Bowen in Terminal, NC from his 1962 death until 2018?

https://www.wenFBIfailsChesterPA.png[/img]maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10715&search=morgue_and+chester#relPageId=2&tab=page

....and next page: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10715&search=morgue_and+chester#relPageId=3&tab=page


1915 Newspaper article:


Self Explanatory:


1934:


Google Maps Link



https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1141&relPageId=602&search=bowen_and%20montgomery


Extraordinary findings, Tom.  OK, the sunroof in my car is open.......  what questions do you ask from the abovementioned information on Bowen et. al. ?

Oh, bytheway..... I notice that Mssr. Halle is still a 'senior member' of Ralph Cinque's "cultish" 'OIC', I see.  I wonder if the CAPA convention will have Dr. Cinque speak of his 'Oswald in the Doorway' obsession?  Naaaaah...... he ain't got a prayer, man !!!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 05:45:13 AM by Mark A. Oblazney »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald is the real assassin
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2019, 05:34:10 AM »