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Author Topic: How Good Are People at Counting?  (Read 36291 times)

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2018, 11:58:50 PM »
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I can't see Jackson's "x" on CE347 can you?  He said he was about half way on Houston and approximately the midpoint of "this building". 


You don't mean midway to the next building along Houston? We'll be getting into the Z250s for the first shot. Gee, you working on another screwball pet theory?

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In any event, it was after he tossed his film to the guy standing on the corner of Houston and Main. It was after that that he heard the shots.  Here is a Youtube video of what he recalled in 1999:


  Notice that he still remarked on the spacing of the shots almost 40 years later.


Jackson also remarks that the first shot occurred just after he tossed the film. That takes us back to his testimony about laughing at the wind taking the film. Dillard spoke about the reverberation being really bad there because of the tall buildings.

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Yes. I have made the point many times that the two are inconsistent. If she heard the last two shots close together as she describes then her "hazy" impression that JFK was not hit by the first shot was wrong.  If her "hazy" impression (which conflicts with the clear recollections of about 20 others) is correct, then her recollection of the last two shots being so close together is wrong. They cannot both be correct.

That's the problem. What makes you think your 20 cherry-picks had clear comprehension of the shot spanning in the midst of major distraction and confusion, and equally clear reconstruction in their memory?

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2018, 11:58:50 PM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2018, 07:09:10 AM »
LOL.  Nowhere in that video does McDonald even say that Oswald tried to shoot a cop in the theater.

Oh, yes, he does. If you pay attention to the video McDonald states that he "snapped the pistol" in other words he pulled the trigger. Innocent people certainly don't try to shoot their way out, now do they.

But Paul...

Iacoletti actually believes the snap could have been a theater seat springing to action as someone got up from it.

Brown actually believes that a click or a snap noise must be a trigger on a revolver being pulled.

But don't blame me for the idea -- blame Ray Hawkins.

Except that Hawkins did not say what you're falsely attributing to him.  You're putting words in his mouth.

Anything to get a cop-killer off the hook.  Right?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 07:13:24 AM by Bill Brown »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2018, 10:25:06 PM »
Except that Hawkins did not say what you're falsely attributing to him.  You're putting words in his mouth.

Anything to get a cop-killer off the hook.  Right?

You haven't actually established that he killed anybody, but nice try.  Anything to frame your desired culprit, right?  "Tried to shoot a cop".  LOL.

I didn't falsely attribute anything.

By the way, it was also mentioned in the Dallas Morning News that earlier as Brewer and Burroughs "passed the back section of the middle aisle downstairs, they heard a seat snap or crack" (November 23, 1963), so according to that, those theater seats did make snapping noises.

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2018, 10:25:06 PM »


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2018, 05:25:50 PM »
You don't mean midway to the next building along Houston? We'll be getting into the Z250s for the first shot. Gee, you working on another screwball pet theory?
My "pet theory" is that the 22 witnesses who said that JFK acted as if he was hit by the first shot were not all experiencing simultaneous halucinations;  that Hughes and Betzner were not halucinating when they said they exposed their film before the first shot; that 45 witnesses, including Jackson, were not halucinating when they recalled the 1......2...3 shot pattern; that dozens of witnesses in motorcade and along Elm were not having simultaneous halucinations as to where JFK was at the time of the first shot. That's my "pet theory".

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Jackson also remarks that the first shot occurred just after he tossed the film. That takes us back to his testimony about laughing at the wind taking the film. Dillard spoke about the reverberation being really bad there because of the tall buildings.
So how does laughing at the corner affect his ability to hear the shots?  He said he was looking forward and just had to look up to the the rifle in the 6th floor window just after the third shot. What is your "pet theory" as to how the incident at the corner prevented him from hearing the shot pattern that he still recalled 36 years later? Does your "pet theory" have any evidence to support it?

On the reverberation point, reverb is not echo. Reverb does not provide two distinct shot sounds. Besides, if people were confused by echos they would have reported MORE than 3 shots.

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That's the problem. What makes you think your 20 cherry-picks had clear comprehension of the shot spanning in the midst of major distraction and confusion, and equally clear reconstruction in their memory?
How are you using the term "cherry picking"? If I was selectively choosing the witnesses who observed JFK's reactions to the first shot, please identify the witnesses who said otherwise.  I am citing ALL those witnesses.  If you disagree, then tell me who I am not including in my list of 22 witnesses who observed JFK immediately after the first shot that you think I should be including (besides Mary Woodward). I did not include Mary Woodward for two reasons: 1. she said things were a little hazy after the first shot but she did not think anyone was hit by it and 2. the second shot was followed rapidly by a third.  2 is inconsistent with 1.  Since JFK is reacting to his neck wound 5 seconds before the last shot, if he had been hit on the only on the second shot, the last two shots could not have followed "rapidly".

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2018, 08:08:48 PM »
By the way, it was also mentioned in the Dallas Morning News that earlier as Brewer and Burroughs "passed the back section of the middle aisle downstairs, they heard a seat snap or crack" (November 23, 1963), so according to that, those theater seats did make snapping noises.

Irrelevant, unless you can cite that article stating that Brewer or Burroughs said that the "seat snap or crack" sounded like the hammer or the trigger of a revolver.

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2018, 08:08:48 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2018, 09:17:03 PM »
Irrelevant, unless you can cite that article stating that Brewer or Burroughs said that the "seat snap or crack" sounded like the hammer or the trigger of a revolver.

You couldn't possibly get more subjective than that.  Some witnesses heard a click or a snap.  Other things were known to have caused clicks or snaps.  Ergo, some witnesses hearing a a click or a snap (regardless of what they thought it sounded like) actually proves nothing.

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2018, 09:30:51 PM »
You couldn't possibly get more subjective than that.  Some witnesses heard a click or a snap.  Other things were known to have caused clicks or snaps.  Ergo, some witnesses hearing a a click or a snap (regardless of what they thought it sounded like) actually proves nothing.

Riiiiiight.

The click or snap of a revolver sounds the same as a theater seat's "click" or "snap".

LOL

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2018, 09:41:37 PM »
You couldn't possibly get more subjective than that.  Some witnesses heard a click or a snap.  Other things were known to have caused clicks or snaps.  Ergo, some witnesses hearing a a click or a snap (regardless of what they thought it sounded like) actually proves nothing.

Did anyone report hearing a thump along with a click or snap? You know, the sound that occurs when the seat hits its back.

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Re: How Good Are People at Counting?
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2018, 09:41:37 PM »