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Author Topic: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?  (Read 132837 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2019, 01:32:45 AM »
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Martin, Clay Shaw was arrested and charged in New Orleans on March 1, 1967, on conspiracy of murdering Kennedy. The murder was carried out in Texas but the actual conspiracy took place in New Orleans.

Denis, I'm pretty sure you will agree that anybody found guilty of being part of a conspiracy to commit murder is equally guilty of that murder as the person who actually pulled the trigger, regardless when and where the plan for the murder was made.

The trial of Clay Shaw was not only about his possible involvement in the conspiracy, but also, and very much so, about the actual murder itself. Now, let's assume for a moment that Shaw had been found guilty of being part of a conspiracy to murder Kennedy, would that, in your opinion, provoke a second trial in Texas about the actual murder itself (which seems to be what Richard's claim requires) or would double jeopardy prevent such a case to go forward?


« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 01:35:44 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2019, 01:32:45 AM »


Offline Denis Pointing

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Re: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2019, 01:58:57 AM »
Denis, I'm pretty sure you will agree that anybody found guilty of being part of a conspiracy to commit murder is equally guilty of that murder as the person who actually pulled the trigger, regardless when and where the plan for the murder was made.

The trial of Clay Shaw was not only about his possible involvement in the conspiracy, but also, and very much so, about the actual murder itself. Now, let's assume for a moment that Shaw had been found guilty of being part of a conspiracy to murder Kennedy, would that, in your opinion, provoke a second trial in Texas about the actual murder itself (which seems to be what Richard's claim requires) or would double jeopardy prevent such a case to go forward?

Martin, I'm just answering your question as to why Shaw's trial was in New Orleans and not Texas. As to if Oswald could only have been put on trial in Texas or not, I honestly don't know. I'm from Britain and know very little about USA state laws. What I do know is that defendants are generally, if not always, put on trial in the state they're charged in. Are there precedents to making exceptions? Would those exceptions have covered Oswald? I haven't a clue.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 02:03:11 AM by Denis Pointing »

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2019, 02:27:45 AM »
Martin, I'm just answering your question as to why Shaw's trial was in New Orleans and not Texas. As to if Oswald could only have been put on trial in Texas or not, I honestly don't know. I'm from Britain and know very little about USA state laws. What I do know is that defendants are generally put on trial in the state they're charged in. Are there precedents to making exceptions? Would those exceptions have covered Oswald? I havent a clue.

Thanks for that, Denis. I fully understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree. First of all, if Shaw was a co-conspirator he would be in the same legal position as Oswald was, if indeed Oswald was part of the conspiracy. In other words, whatever rules would apply to Oswald should also apply to his co-conspirators, right?

Secondly, you are indeed correct in saying that defendants are generally put on trial in the state the murder took place and thus in the state they're charged in. However, in this case Shaw was not extradited to Texas, like one would usually expect for a murder suspect/conspirator charged with a crime in Texas. His trial went forward in New Orleans instead, making Richard's claim that a trial about a murder in Texas always has to be held in Texas a bit silly.

It seems to me that the Clay Shaw trial was held in New Orleans and not Texas simply because Texas didn't want it. They had never charged Shaw with anything and as far as they were concerned the case was closed (which it never is when unresolved by the death of the suspect). They, and I don't know this for a fact. most likely simply didn't want any part of Garrison prosectution.

Having said that, the Clay Shaw trial in New Orleans proves beyond any doubt that Richard Smith was only blowing hot air when he pretended to be a know it all armchair lawyer. The fact that Richard Smith hasn't been able to answer the question I asked him just confirms the same as well.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 02:55:00 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2019, 02:27:45 AM »


Online John Mytton

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Re: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2019, 05:37:59 AM »
Thanks for that, Denis. I fully understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree. First of all, if Shaw was a co-conspirator he would be in the same legal position as Oswald was, if indeed Oswald was part of the conspiracy. In other words, whatever rules would apply to Oswald should also apply to his co-conspirators, right?

Secondly, you are indeed correct in saying that defendants are generally put on trial in the state the murder took place and thus in the state they're charged in. However, in this case Shaw was not extradited to Texas, like one would usually expect for a murder suspect/conspirator charged with a crime in Texas. His trial went forward in New Orleans instead, making Richard's claim that a trial about a murder in Texas always has to be held in Texas a bit silly.

It seems to me that the Clay Shaw trial was held in New Orleans and not Texas simply because Texas didn't want it. They had never charged Shaw with anything and as far as they were concerned the case was closed (which it never is when unresolved by the death of the suspect). They, and I don't know this for a fact. most likely simply didn't want any part of Garrison prosectution.

Having said that, the Clay Shaw trial in New Orleans proves beyond any doubt that Richard Smith was only blowing hot air when he pretended to be a know it all armchair lawyer. The fact that Richard Smith hasn't been able to answer the question I asked him just confirms the same as well.

Quote
It seems to me that the Clay Shaw trial was held in New Orleans and not Texas simply because Texas didn't want it.

So you're just guessing the reason why the trial wasn't in Dallas, then you go on to make a beyond any doubt conclusion, maybe it's best for you to contact Roger Collins for some clarification?

JohnM
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 06:21:29 AM by John Mytton »

Online John Mytton

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Re: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2019, 09:06:11 AM »
The problem is, you've actually been dead for decades sir, maybe even 1.5 centuries. So why the fake name?

Pretty shallow.

Another Creep who googles my name.

STOP stalking me!

JohnM

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Re: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2019, 09:06:11 AM »


Offline Denis Pointing

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Re: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?
« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2019, 10:54:23 AM »
Another Creep who googles my name.

STOP stalking me!

JohnM

The creeps obviously a stalker John, probably a pillow biter. Ignore him.

PS Why don't we ever get stalked by attractive females anymore?   :D :D

Offline Denis Pointing

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Re: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?
« Reply #86 on: June 27, 2019, 11:44:23 AM »
Thanks for that, Denis. I fully understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree. First of all, if Shaw was a co-conspirator he would be in the same legal position as Oswald was, if indeed Oswald was part of the conspiracy. In other words, whatever rules would apply to Oswald should also apply to his co-conspirators, right?

Secondly, you are indeed correct in saying that defendants are generally put on trial in the state the murder took place and thus in the state they're charged in. However, in this case Shaw was not extradited to Texas, like one would usually expect for a murder suspect/conspirator charged with a crime in Texas. His trial went forward in New Orleans instead, making Richard's claim that a trial about a murder in Texas always has to be held in Texas a bit silly.

It seems to me that the Clay Shaw trial was held in New Orleans and not Texas simply because Texas didn't want it. They had never charged Shaw with anything and as far as they were concerned the case was closed (which it never is when unresolved by the death of the suspect). They, and I don't know this for a fact. most likely simply didn't want any part of Garrison prosectution.

Having said that, the Clay Shaw trial in New Orleans proves beyond any doubt that Richard Smith was only blowing hot air when he pretended to be a know it all armchair lawyer. The fact that Richard Smith hasn't been able to answer the question I asked him just confirms the same as well.

Martin, I'm aware many states didn't want anything to do with Garisons 'dodgy' trial which made subpoenaing some witnesses impossible. I can well believe Texas was one of these. But there are other considerations to take into account. Garrison definitely wanted the 'glory' and publicity for the trial, to be fair he had done all the work, so even if Texas had requested extradition, Garrison would have almost certainly refused it. Also, as I said earlier, Shaw was never charged with Kennedy's murder. The State of Louisiana was charging Shaw with conspiracy to commit murder, a completely different charge. 
You asked for my opinion so I'll give it but I admit, it is only an opinion, I'm no expert; Had Shaw been found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder in New Orleans, Texas would have had no choice than to request the extradition of Shaw to face a charge of murdering Kennedy in Texas. IMO, this wouldn't affect the double-jeopardy law because Shaw had never been tried for the Kennedy murder in New Orleans, 'only' conspiracy to commit. Hope this makes sense, hope this is correct.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 11:46:46 AM by Denis Pointing »

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?
« Reply #87 on: June 27, 2019, 01:51:18 PM »
So you're just guessing the reason why the trial wasn't in Dallas, then you go on to make a beyond any doubt conclusion, maybe it's best for you to contact Roger Collins for some clarification?

JohnM

Johnny,

It doesn't matter why the trial was held in New Orleans. What matters is that it was held there proving Richard Smith's claim to be wrong.

Btw Your obsession with a guy who hasn't posted on this forum for several years now seems to be spinning out of control. Get help!
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 02:03:05 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: CT's, in court how would you defend Oswald?
« Reply #87 on: June 27, 2019, 01:51:18 PM »