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Author Topic: Why the first shot missed  (Read 43822 times)

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2019, 04:44:21 PM »
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You missed out "in my opinion", Jack.

My turn o.k.,  but first answer the question I asked you, Jack.
You wrote, "You are saying there was a shot after the headshot as the car accelerated and was leaving Dealey Plaza."

Where did I say that?

I just don't understand why you would quote a witness who disagrees with your conclusion, that there were only two shots. Why do that?

In my opinion Ray, while attempting to be clever and despite his conspiracy beliefs, managed to stupidly quote James Jarman in the belief he was quoting a three shot testimony, not realizing he was really endorsing SBT with a second shot as the headshot as described by Jarman. Also in my opinion, Ray seemingly lacks the intestinal fortitude to admit his mistake. Also in my opinion, I doubt Ray has the where with all to realize there really was just two shots.

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2019, 04:44:21 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2019, 04:49:03 PM »
Phil Willis put a time stamp on the first shot by clicking the shutter on his camera when the sound

of that shot startled him.

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.






Online Charles Collins

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2019, 05:30:46 PM »
That is interesting, especially assuming 3 shots came from that window. So explain at what point did this shooter start this tracking motion with this rifle.

Do you even understand what you are saying? When considering this tracking motion idea of yours it would have to be visible on the Hugh's film,
I mean, we already have Brennan, if you believe his description of a shooter as "did not seem to be in any hurry".

Why not just say this shooter in the middle of this tracking motion decided to stop and light a cigarette for the hell of it

I get it, the rifle collided with the cardboard, the shot is fired, but the bullet hits the pavement and not the intended target. 
Then after this apparent blunder, it is followed by a couple of perfect recovery shots.

Wouldn't that be something? BS: BS: BS:

Marine infantry training would make a little interference from a box seem like nothing to get worried about.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 05:38:50 PM by Charles Collins »

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2019, 05:30:46 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2019, 06:01:10 PM »
This is good. Lots of useless posting trying to obscure the point. You realize there was never an early missed shot or you would not be deliberately misquoting these witnesses in an attempt to give the idea there was one.

Every Z frame is approximately 1 foot of travel

Willis photo The WC thought it was Z210, The HSCA thought it was Z202.

Willis thought his 05 slide matched Z226. That's why he claimed his most-commercial slide showed Kennedy had been hit and was reacting to the first shot.

Quote
Betzner takes his photo at Z186 and is rewinding the camera and hears the first shot afterwards.

He's definitely not looking down and winding his camera prior to Z207. So no tie to him hearing a shot at Z202. Could be looking down and winding his camera by Z223.

Quote
------------------------

Mary Woodward places the shot after Z204, Her reference to 40 yards is after he passes her not before .

    "The car proceeded down Elm, and when it was about 40 yards
     from us, we heard the first noise"

She says "from us" not "pass us". This means the car was approaching her.

Quote
Woodward said the earsplitting noise happened after JFK turned forward not before and JFK does not turn forward until Z204+

Mary Woodward
"After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right."

 

Quote
----------------------
Jean Newman: the first shot occurs after he passes her. The Chisms standing a few yards further down Elm Street  said the first shot occurred  right before them.
------------------------

The "first" of two shots Newman has a recollection of would have to occur much later than Z202 if she was accurate about the President having passed her.

The Chisms likewise could only recall two shots, the head shot and what I believe to be the shot before that. From their same-day affidavits, the "first" shot supposedly struck the President. Mr. Chism said:

    "And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this
     side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot"

 

Kennedy waves through the Z200s and beyond. JFK is more "in front of me" at Z223 than Z202.

Quote

Jackie is answering the question from Rankin, not describing the wounding of JBC.

Mr. RANKIN. "Do you have any recollection of whether there were one or more shots? is a description of the total number of shots."


Jackie: "Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling"  Jackie in her WC statement dismisses the thought there was three shots and states there was only two

----------------------------

Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling. And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn't make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this [indicating with hand at neck]. He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember.
And I read there was a third shot. But I don't know. Just those two


She could not have been any clearer on that point of two shots vs three shots. She references the medias influence the same as the WC and the HSCA.

In my opinion, many of the "two shots" witnesses could have heard three shots and have a recollection of just two. Seems many of them (ie: Bretzner) acknowledge the possibility of a third shot. The "three shots" witnesses seem more sure of the count.

The early media reports claimed Kennedy was struck on the first shot. This may have influenced many, including Mrs. Connally.

Offline Peter Kleinschmidt

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2019, 01:09:57 AM »
Marine infantry training would make a little interference from a box seem like nothing to get worried about.


What a comparison, now I understand how you come up with these ideas that fall out of the range of possibility.

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2019, 01:09:57 AM »


Offline Ray Mitcham

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2019, 08:35:50 AM »
In my opinion Ray, while attempting to be clever and despite his conspiracy beliefs, managed to stupidly quote James Jarman in the belief he was quoting a three shot testimony, not realizing he was really endorsing SBT with a second shot as the headshot as described by Jarman. Also in my opinion, Ray seemingly lacks the intestinal fortitude to admit his mistake. Also in my opinion, I doubt Ray has the where with all to realize there really was just two shots.
Ignoring the childish insults, Jack, you don't seem to understand that  Jarman didn't see any of the shots hit the President (His sworn testimony to the W.C.) how could he have seen which hit the President?

His sworn testimony.

"Mr. BALL - How long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much time do you think it was?
Mr. BALL - After the third shot was fired I would say it was about a minute.
Mr. McCLOY You have had military experience, haven't you?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY - But you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt moving?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY - Did you see the President actually hit by the bullets?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. I couldn't say that I saw him actually hit, but after the second shot, I presumed that he was
, because I had my eye on his car from the time it came down Houston until the time it started toward the freeway underpass.
Mr. McCLOY - You saw him crumple, you saw him fall, did you? Mr. BALL - How long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much time do you think it was?
Mr. BALL - After the third shot was fired I would say it was about a minute.


So Jack's "evidence" that Jarman' second shot was to the head is wrong.  Nowhere does Jarman say the second shot hit the President in the head. He is reported to have said (note NOT actually said)
"he heard a shot and then saw President KENNEDY
move his right hand up to his head. [Throat shot?] After an elapse of three
or four seconds, he heard a second shot and then the vehicle
bearing President KENNEDY speeded up and he was unable to
observe any more about the presidential vehicle. He said a
third shot was heard- by-him closely following the second shot
possibly within/second or two afterward. He said these shots
sounded to him to be too loud to have been anywhere outside the
TSBD building."

Nowhere does he say he saw a shot hit the President in the head.

So the third shot he heard was the head shot.

So he heard three shots. Q.E.D.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 09:36:24 AM by Ray Mitcham »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2019, 11:59:51 AM »
What a comparison, now I understand how you come up with these ideas that fall out of the range of possibility.

If you ever wake up to reality, you might understand that they are not only feasible but probable. And that the point I am making is that marines are trained not to loose their composure, and to focus on hitting their targets even under intense attack from the enemy. Therefore a little bump into an unarmed small box with a rifle is not likely to deter one from hitting the target on the next two shots.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 06:32:35 PM by Charles Collins »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2019, 05:52:52 PM »
That is interesting, especially assuming 3 shots came from that window. So explain at what point did this shooter start this tracking motion with this rifle.

Do you even understand what you are saying? When considering this tracking motion idea of yours it would have to be visible on the Hugh's film,
I mean, we already have Brennan, if you believe his description of a shooter as "did not seem to be in any hurry".

Why not just say this shooter in the middle of this tracking motion decided to stop and light a cigarette for the hell of it

I get it, the rifle collided with the cardboard, the shot is fired, but the bullet hits the pavement and not the intended target. 
Then after this apparent blunder, it is followed by a couple of perfect recovery shots.

Wouldn't that be something? BS: BS: BS:

Tell us where in the shooting sequence, other than just after the last shot, Brennan said or even implied that the shooter didn't seem to be in a hurry. Trying to misplace Brennan's words in an attempt to rescue your own quickly-sinking delusions is tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 06:10:29 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: Why the first shot missed
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2019, 05:52:52 PM »