Why the first shot missed

[Charles Collins]

I had a great three and half days in Dealey Plaza this past week as an early birthday present. One unexpected find was the remnants of the pipes on the 7th floor. I had a tape measure so took these photos.  I also coincidentally met Stephen Fagin and thanked him for his help with Jerry's request. I also found out it is okay to photograph on the sixth floor also, just no flash on sixth or seventh. I got lots of photos of the glassed in SN display.

Very cool James! I see four circular items that could be cut off ends of pipes. Could you please explain what we are seeing in the photo? And I am looking forward to seeing your photos of the sixth floor sniper’s nest display!

[James Hackerott]

The image is over sized and may not be displaying fully. There two images on the top of collage. The first is a closeup of the pipe that would be the curved pipe from below. The ~2 in pipe is centered about 10” from the South wall. Just above and touching the pipe appears to be chipped cement or other material slightly mounded over the pipes and is chipped to form that irregular shape. The photo on top right would be the straight pipe from below. The bottom photo is rotated 90 degrees and shows the measures from the East wall.

I get roughly for the
straight pipe center 36” from East wall
straight pipe center 11.5” from South wall
bent pipe center 27.5” from East wall
bent pipe center  10” from South wall

Here is a full resolution view of the bent pipe and chip. Top edge is South. I don't think that chip contains a pipe edge, but I did not think at the time to check it closer.


For the SN pic many may be suitable for 3D anaglyphs. If you don't have a pair of cyan/red 3D glasses you might find some on Amazon pretty cheap. I wear glasses and found a pair of cyan/red clip-ons that work really well for me.

[Charles Collins]

The image is over sized and may not be displaying fully. There two images on the top of collage. The first is a closeup of the pipe that would be the curved pipe from below. The ~2 in pipe is centered about 10” from the South wall. Just above and touching the pipe appears to be chipped cement or other material slightly mounded over the pipes and is chipped to form that irregular shape. The photo on top right would be the straight pipe from below. The bottom photo is rotated 90 degrees and shows the measures from the East wall.

I get roughly for the
straight pipe center 36” from East wall
straight pipe center 11.5” from South wall
bent pipe center 27.5” from East wall
bent pipe center  10” from South wall

Here is a full resolution view of the bent pipe and chip. Top edge is South. I don't think that chip contains a pipe edge, but I did not think at the time to check it closer.


For the SN pic many may be suitable for 3D anaglyphs. If you don't have a pair of cyan/red 3D glasses you might find some on Amazon pretty cheap. I wear glasses and found a pair of cyan/red clip-ons that work really well for me.

Thanks, now I understand. I was viewing this on my phone, which probably didn’t help (due to the small screen).

[James Hackerott]

The image is over sized and may not be displaying fully. There two images on the top of collage. The first is a closeup of the pipe that would be the curved pipe from below. The ~2 in pipe is centered about 10” from the South wall. Just above and touching the pipe appears to be chipped cement or other material slightly mounded over the pipes and is chipped to form that irregular shape. The photo on top right would be the straight pipe from below. The bottom photo is rotated 90 degrees and shows the measures from the East wall.

I get roughly for the
straight pipe center 36” from East wall
straight pipe center 11.5” from South wall
bent pipe center 27.5” from East wall
bent pipe center  10” from South wall

Here is a full resolution view of the bent pipe and chip. Top edge is South. I don't think that chip contains a pipe edge, but I did not think at the time to check it closer.


For the SN pic many may be suitable for 3D anaglyphs. If you don't have a pair of cyan/red 3D glasses you might find some on Amazon pretty cheap. I wear glasses and found a pair of cyan/red clip-ons that work really well for me.

I revised and corrected the annotation for the bottom image.. This should make it easier of others, and myself too, to visualize.

[Charles Collins]

I found more corroboration of the first shot occurring before z-160 in the account of Clint Grant, photographer for Dallas Morning News. He was in camera car #2. In his 1993  c-span video description he said the as the car rounded the corner of Main and Houston the shots began. The camera car #2 was exiting the corner onto Houston Street at approximately z-133. This timing agrees with the other evidence that I have provided earlier in this thread...

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

In my model, the strike point for the Max Holland/Lost Bullet theory is on the outer arm of the traffic light assembly.

The seated shooter's left hand would have to hold the rifle with the trigger-guard housing to be clear of the pipes. Also the center of the rifle butt-plate is about four inches above the un-artictulated right shoulder. Unless the right shoulder rises some distance while pointing a rifle down, the shooter would have to standing.

This is academic as there is too much against a first shot as early as Max Holland has proposed.

Notice that Holland's drawing is wrong. The correct line of fire goes throo the collar for the 2 guy rods. A multi ricochet involving collar rods pipe (& even the signals) would explain the lead hitting the pavement & the 2 copper fragments ending up in the limo, & 1 fragment glancing off JFK's head.
If Oswald fired a clean miss, there would be a big crater in the road. And no good mechanism for 2 copper fragments to end up in the limo.

[Dan O'meara]

Notice that Holland's drawing is wrong. The correct line of fire goes throo the collar for the 2 guy rods. A multi ricochet involving collar rods pipe (& even the signals) would explain the lead hitting the pavement & the 2 copper fragments ending up in the limo, & 1 fragment glancing off JFK's head.
If Oswald fired a clean miss, there would be a big crater in the road. And no good mechanism for 2 copper fragments to end up in the limo.

Hi Marjan,

You say at z203 " two standing agents are starting to look back to Oswald"

Below is a close up of z207, four frames after z203. It's the last frame we see most of the agents in. I'm sure you'll agree that not one is looking back towards the TSBD, so I don't understand where you are getting the idea from that they are looking back:



From your notes can you reveal where you are getting the idea from there is a shot before z133.

Oh yeah...I asked you before to explain why none of the agents has reacted to a loud, explosive noise for over four seconds. What are your ideas on that?

Thought you might like to clear these points up 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Thought you might like to clear these points up 

Yes i did answer in your other thread. The Agents were confused etc.
Anyhow if u are correct that the first shot was later then there would still be a long delay to say Z255 if that is when the Altgen-6 pix is taken.
Conversely if u are correct then there would have to be a very short delay of say 3.0 sec (which is less than an acceptable say 5.0 sec) tween shot1 at say Z??? & shot2 at say Z218 (some say i think Z222).