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Author Topic: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!  (Read 61962 times)

Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #96 on: August 20, 2019, 07:09:26 AM »
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Michael,

If you would only read Spy Wars and the other works I provided links to in an earlier post, this thread, you'd realize how truly full of beans you are.

-- MWT   ;)

Better beans than Kool-Aid

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #96 on: August 20, 2019, 07:09:26 AM »


Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #97 on: August 20, 2019, 07:26:48 AM »
Better beans than Kool-Aid

Michael,

1) Good one.

2) When are you going to write that letter to former Army Intelligence analyst and hard-core CTer, John Newman, and to U.C. Berkeley professor Peter Dale Scott, the guy who wrote the seminal essay Popov's Mole many years ago and who had a full-on epiphany about the GRU colonel just last year while listening to Newman recite from Tennent H. Bagley's Spy Wars during Newman's 2018 youtube presentation on same ... telling both uh dem guys how wrong, wrong, wrong dey is to be persuaded (by Bagley!) like dat about your hero, Nosenko?

--  MWT  ;)

PS  Did you delete the "... gasp ..." from my text, or, in your haste to "cover" my edited-at-the-last-minute post, get yours up before I'd had the presence of mind to insert that little jewell?

PPS  Professor Scott starts having his epiphany about Popov at 9:10 in this video:



« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 08:45:16 AM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #98 on: August 20, 2019, 09:09:07 AM »
Thomas, You should read John Harts’s work, the subject at hand, “The Monster Plot”, along with Richards Heuer’s “Nosenko: Five Paths to Judgement”, a little, ok, a lot more carefully. You could perhaps rest more easily and stop spamming forums like Chicken Little. The Monster Plot is a myth, formed by Bagely and Angleton who were either remarkably stupid or willing pay an enourmously, and I mean gigantonormously, high price to hide something; something as big as the assassination of a sitting American President. Yet, incompetence and stupidity do not explain what I have highlighted in my screenshots of John Hart’s book, “The Monster Plot”.

Here is another example of willful incompetence, or a complete lack of attention to doing what was, ostensibly, their job, Gathering information. They just were not interested:





Michael,

As I've already told you, I've already read Hart's 186-page report.  It gave me a headache and made me feel queasy.

Regardless, in Spy Wars, Bagley explains that when Nosenko "walked in" in Geneva in 1962 and he (Bagley) met one-on-one with him during the first session, their respective facilities with each other's native tongue (Nosenko spoke English quite well, according to Bagley) was good enough for them to understand each other, just fine.

In Bagley's HSCA testimony, he mentions that in the U.S. he brought in his own trusted native-Russian speaker (probably true-defector Pyotr Deriabin) to check the accuracy of the transcripts that had been made of Nosenko's 1962 Geneva conversations with Bagley and CIA's native Russian-speaking "super-handler" George Kisevalter (except for the very first meeting when, as mentioned above, it was just Bagley and Nosenko), and that Bagley's trusted translator had found something like 150 errors in the transcripts.  https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol12/html/HSCA_Vol12_0293a.htm

The sessions with Nosenko were always tape-recorded (interestingly, only Kisevalter complains about the "poor quality"), and supposedly both Bagley and Kisevalter took notes.

I've read a lot about Kisevalter recently, and, taking into consideration (among many other things) that it was he, as Hart's "the second case officer" who had made the 1962 transcripts, I believe that he (and probably his co-handler in some eventually-"blown" high-profile cases, Richard Kovich) was a KGB mole.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if it was George Kisevalter who made all of those "mistakes" in the transcripts, so as to give false-defector Nosenko that "out", if needed, kn the future.

Cheers!

--  MWT   ;)


PS  "A lot more carefully"?  "Spamming"?  What's with the attitude, Michael?

PPS  You should read Spy Wars.  Heck, even carelessly.

Here, why don't you give it a shot?  (pardon the pun)
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames

Or at least his follow-up 35-page PDF if you find all of those Ruskie names "too much to handle".  (pardon the pun)
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362




« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 11:02:35 PM by Thomas Graves »

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #98 on: August 20, 2019, 09:09:07 AM »


Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #99 on: August 20, 2019, 01:08:39 PM »
Note: The title of this thread, right now, is “The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!”

John Hart’s “Monster Wars” was not released to the public until November of 2017. Newman’s presentation came on March 3 of 2018. Perhaps he didn’t know about it, hadn’t read it, and perhaps he never read Heuer’s “Nosenko: Five paths to judgement”. He never mentioned either. Unlike you, a credible person would want to maintain credibility with his or her peers by acknowledging the most relevant counter treatments on your subject and address the counterarguments.

You simply refer to anyone who does not agree with you as tinfoil hat wearers, traitors, liars, KGB lovers, buddies of Putin or Stalin or some other-such nonsense.

Newman is not fully convinced of Golitsyn’s Bona Fide’s, neither is Peter Dale Scott.

Newman never mentions Heuer

Newman never mentions Hart

Newman never mentions the Monster or Master Plot

Michael,

Yeah, you're right -- John Newman probably isn't even aware that The Hart Report and Heuer's Five Paths To Judgment exist and are available to the general public now.

(sarcasm)

Why don't you send him a letter and let him know, so he can set himself (and Peter Dale Scott) "straight" on Nosenko, et al.?

LOL

--  MWT  ;)

PS Why haven't you tried to rebut, in your own words, the rebuttals to Hart I've already made in this thread?  Like, for example, the fact that Nosenko didn't uncover any spies or moles, and that probable mole George Kisevalter very likely put those 150 mistakes into the 1962 transcripts so as to implicate Bagley, or to give false-defector Nosenko an "out" later, if needed?

Could it be because, not having read Spy Wars, you don't know enough about the subject matter?

Has James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio posted a critique of Spy Wars at the EF, or at that fount of misinformation, K&K?

How about Jefferson "Intellectually Dishonest" Morley at his website?

Certainly you can glom onto something, Michael.


« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 10:56:16 PM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #100 on: August 20, 2019, 11:48:22 PM »
Michael,

Yeah, you're right -- John Newman probably isn't even aware that The Hart Report and Heuer's Five Paths To Judgment exist and are available to the general public now.

(sarcasm)

Why don't you send him a letter and let him know, so he can set himself (and Peter Dale Scott) "straight" on Nosenko, et al.?


I didn’t say that. I didn’t imply it.

Someone put it better than I can ( I would credit that person but I think that might imbibe that person with the dirty slimy feeling that one gets when they engage with “Mud Wrassler Tommy”:

“Michael:

Very astute of you to draw our attention to Tommy’s proclivity for altering his posts, even months after the fact.

When he’s been bested by others, he wants to diminish the extent to which it is true.  Even if it means altering the context of the original flow of posts.  Gaslighting by any other name is still gaslighting.

There are many things you can call a man so sneaky, none of them good.

Then there is the matter of witless posts suggesting the original conspirators would never have let Oswald appear on film during the Big Event.

This presupposes that Tommy knows what the conspirators planned (um...how?), and that their plan would fall to pieces if Oswald were observed anywhere other than the 6th floor.

Not so.  And it doesn’t take an Einstein to parse it out.

The fact that others destroyed evidence, censored, altered, and lied after the fact in service of a lone gunman conclusion doesn’t mean that is what the conspirators intended.

In fact, the original charge against Oswald by the Dallas DA stipulated that he killed John Kennedy in furtherance of an international communist conspiracy.

I posit the conspirators wished to create precisely that response.

So, prima facie evidence of other weapons, other possible shooters, rendezvous with “Comrade Kostin” (aka Kostikov), membership in the FPCC, communications with the various leftist parties (Communist, Socialist, etc.) were deliberately left behind and/or “floated” by the conspirators.  So long as Oswald could by tied to the putative murder weapon, given his leftist background, it didn’t really matter who fired it.  He was still part of a Commie conspiracy.  In fact, it was through Oswald’s purported ownership of the weapon that the Commie conspiracy was demonstrably credible, albeit fictitious.

The evidence for this conspiracy wasn’t hidden by the conspirators, but was deep-sixed  by the investigators whose own reputations would suffer if a conspiracy could be proved to the nation’s satisfaction.  It is by tracing who crafted damning evidence against Oswald BEFORE the Big Event that we can identify those who maneuvered him into place on 11/22/63.

Did Tommy really not consider so obvious an hypothesis before creating that thread?

Apparently not.  Which tells us something about Tommy’s intellectual rigor.  As in, there’s little evidence for it. 

Which makes it all the more puzzling why so many Forum members take the bait and keep engaging this barnacle in discussions he will only warp through subsequent editing anyway.   

I just find it odd that a number of Forum barnacles all preach various hypothesis as though they were fact, and what they all share in common is diverting interest and discussion away from prime suspects in the CIA, and direct it instead toward General Walker, or pro-Castro Cubans, or Lyndon Johnson, or the KGB.

The fact that CIA pays people like Max Holland for precisely such diversionary codswallop doesn’t mean the Forum barnacles are likewise subsidized.  But, paid or not, they are, like Max Holland, doing the Agency’s bidding.

Accessories After The Fact. 

Ye shall know them by their fruits.”
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 11:49:19 PM by Michael Clark »

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #100 on: August 20, 2019, 11:48:22 PM »


Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #101 on: August 21, 2019, 12:01:56 AM »

Michael,

Yeah, you're right -- John Newman probably isn't even aware that The Hart Report and Heuer's Five Paths To Judgment exist and are available to the general public now.

(sarcasm)

Why don't you send him a letter to let him know that those two pieces of propaganda are available to the public?  So, you know, ... he can read them and finally set himself (and Peter Dale Scott) "straight" for-once-and-for-all on Yuri Nosenko and Anatoliy Golitsyn, et al.?
 
--  MWT   ;)

..........


I didn’t say that. I didn’t imply it.

Someone put it better than I can ( I would credit that person but I think that might imbibe that person with the dirty slimy feeling that one gets when they engage with “Mud Wrassler Tommy”:


“Michael:

Very astute of you to draw our attention to Tommy’s proclivity for altering his posts, even months after the fact.

When he’s been bested by others, he wants to diminish the extent to which it is true.  Even if it means altering the context of the original flow of posts.  Gaslighting by any other name is still gaslighting.

There are many things you can call a man so sneaky, none of them good.

Then there is the matter of witless posts suggesting the original conspirators would never have let Oswald appear on film during the Big Event.

This presupposes that Tommy knows what the conspirators planned (um...how?), and that their plan would fall to pieces if Oswald were observed anywhere other than the 6th floor.

Not so.  And it doesn’t take an Einstein to parse it out.

The fact that others destroyed evidence, censored, altered, and lied after the fact in service of a lone gunman conclusion doesn’t mean that is what the conspirators intended.

In fact, the original charge against Oswald by the Dallas DA stipulated that he killed John Kennedy in furtherance of an international communist conspiracy.

I posit the conspirators wished to create precisely that response.

So, prima facie evidence of other weapons, other possible shooters, rendezvous with “Comrade Kostin” (aka Kostikov), membership in the FPCC, communications with the various leftist parties (Communist, Socialist, etc.) were deliberately left behind and/or “floated” by the conspirators.  So long as Oswald could by tied to the putative murder weapon, given his leftist background, it didn’t really matter who fired it.  He was still part of a Commie conspiracy.  In fact, it was through Oswald’s purported ownership of the weapon that the Commie conspiracy was demonstrably credible, albeit fictitious.

The evidence for this conspiracy wasn’t hidden by the conspirators, but was deep-sixed  by the investigators whose own reputations would suffer if a conspiracy could be proved to the nation’s satisfaction.  It is by tracing who crafted damning evidence against Oswald BEFORE the Big Event that we can identify those who maneuvered him into place on 11/22/63.

Did Tommy really not consider so obvious an hypothesis before creating that thread?

Apparently not.  Which tells us something about Tommy’s intellectual rigor.  As in, there’s little evidence for it. 

Which makes it all the more puzzling why so many Forum members take the bait and keep engaging this barnacle in discussions he will only warp through subsequent editing anyway.   

I just find it odd that a number of Forum barnacles all preach various hypothesis as though they were fact, and what they all share in common is diverting interest and discussion away from prime suspects in the CIA, and direct it instead toward General Walker, or pro-Castro Cubans, or Lyndon Johnson, or the KGB.

The fact that CIA pays people like Max Holland for precisely such diversionary codswallop doesn’t mean the Forum barnacles are likewise subsidized.  But, paid or not, they are, like Max Holland, doing the Agency’s bidding.

Accessories After The Fact. 

Ye shall know them by their fruits.”



Michael,

Very well spoken!  By whoever wrote it.

But I would still like to know when you're going to send a letter to John Newman to turn him onto Five Paths to Judgement and The Hart Report.

In order to set him straight on the true nature of (false-defector) Yuri Nosenko!

-- MWT   ;)

PS  Please keep us apprised on how that goes, won't you?


« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 12:43:21 AM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Michael Clark

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2019, 12:43:25 AM »
From Richards Heuer’s:   Nosenko: Five paths to judgement

“I will start by making my personal bias clear. I became a believer in the master plot theory in 1965 when first exposed to the reasoning described above under the motive approach. Although initially a believer, I never put much stock in Bagley's Thousand Pager, as I had learned from experience to be skeptical of conclusions based on the anomalies and inconsistencies approach to counterintelligence analysis. My first doubts arose when, one by one, various expectations failed to materialize, which is the reasoning described above under the predictive test approach. Subsequently, for reasons discussed under the cost accounting approach-the high volume of significant intelligence being received through multiple sources-I rejected the master plot theory and concluded that Nosenko was not acting under KGB control. This conclusion was recently reinforced when, in doing research for this study, I learned how the many anomalies and contradictions were eventually explained.”

Full Transcription: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25943-richards-heuer-nosenko-five-paths-to-judgement/?tab=comments#comment-405084.


Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #103 on: August 21, 2019, 12:48:34 AM »
From Richards Heuer’s:   Nosenko: Five paths to judgement

“I will start by making my personal bias clear. I became a believer in the master plot theory in 1965 when first exposed to the reasoning described above under the motive approach. Although initially a believer, I never put much stock in Bagley's Thousand Pager, as I had learned from experience to be skeptical of conclusions based on the anomalies and inconsistencies approach to counterintelligence analysis. My first doubts arose when, one by one, various expectations failed to materialize, which is the reasoning described above under the predictive test approach. Subsequently, for reasons discussed under the cost accounting approach-the high volume of significant intelligence being received through multiple sources-I rejected the master plot theory and concluded that Nosenko was not acting under KGB control. This conclusion was recently reinforced when, in doing research for this study, I learned how the many anomalies and contradictions were eventually explained.”

Full Transcription: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25943-richards-heuer-nosenko-five-paths-to-judgement/?tab=comments#comment-405084.

Wow, that's quite a testimonial.

From a gullible, wishful-thinking person who, unlike spiteful and under-endowed Howard J. Osborn, also was spiteful and under-endowed but had absolutely no experience whatsoever with Soviet Russia/Soviet Block Counterintelligence efforts.

LOL

--  MWT   ;)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 12:54:10 AM by Thomas Graves »

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Re: The Monster Plot, by CIA's Very Own KGB Apologist John L. Hart!
« Reply #103 on: August 21, 2019, 12:48:34 AM »