Did Hickey Fire the Fatal Shot - Originally Posted by Tom Dooley

[Jerry Organ]

So there are a lot of people seeing the AR15 in Hickey’s hand, some thinking he fired it.

Is that your new take on this claim?

    "Howard Donohue went through the Warren Report and found eleven witnesses
     that put the AR15 in Agent Hickeys hand at the time of the third shot. Of the
     eleven witnesses, seven are Secret Service agents."

OK. We got through to you.

No other weapons were seen by any of the witnesses. Other people, reputable people smelling gun smoke. The smoke flowed down the motorcade, common sense say’s he fired the gun.

What's wrong with two heavy stretch-limos causing exhaust fumes that could be confused with the smell of gun smoke? No where else in the motorcade do they (and the motorcycle escorts) have such sudden all-out acceleration as they do after the last shot.

It’s possible that the frangible round could have come from the Dal Tex Building or somewhere else behind JFK but then you have a problem with the gun smoke, it isn’t going to reach the motorcade because the wind is blowing in that direction.

Why the Dal-Tex? Because it's low to the street like Hickey's position? And that better conforms with the Donahue/McLaren trajectory through the head?



A lower trajectory slope would exit more up towards the apex, and thus cause a smaller gaping exit wound.

[John Iacoletti]

A couple of years ago I slo-mo'd the Dix (or Bronson?) vid

Dix?

[John Iacoletti]

“Oswald window” 

[Michael Carney]

I don’t understand what you, JO, mean by “Ok, we got through to you”

Witnesses to Hickey holding and possibly firing a “rifle”:
•   Dallas Mayor, Earl Cabel. see’s one Secret Service agent standup with a sub-machine gun.
•   Senator Yarbrough also saw a rifle.
•   Agent Winston rides in the front of JFK in the lead car. He noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow up car, “I first thought that    he had fired it”.
•   Sam Holland, a witness, is standing on top of the underpass as the motorcade is going under him. “After the first shot, the Secret Service agent raised up with a machine gun and dropped back down into the seat. WC Vol XIX, ex 5323, pg 480
•   Roy Kellerman testified there was an AR15 in the motorcade.
•   Hugh Betner saw one Secret Service agent pull out a gun, he was standing watching the motorcade. vol XXIV, ex 2003, pg 200
•   A police officer on the over pass as the motorcade passing under saw an agent swinging around the gun.
•   Margaret Chisolm WC vol XIX, ex 5323, pg 472 saw agents stand up and sit back down.
•   Jean Hill – Saw JFK grab his chest and fall forward and she thinks she saw men in plain clothes shooting back. WC Vol XXIV, Ex 2003, pg 212
•   Ralph Yarborough saw a SS Agent pull out a rifle. WC Vol VII, pg 439

[Michael Carney]

“What's wrong with two heavy stretch-limos causing exhaust fumes that could be confused with the smell of gun smoke? No where else in the motorcade do they (and the motorcycle escorts) have such sudden all-out acceleration as they do after the last shot.”

JO, the problem with that is no one mentions “exhaust” fumes, they say “gunpowder”. Basic gunpowder is composed of charcoal, potassium nitrate, and sulfur which has a particular smell that to me smells nothing like exhaust fumes. So I am not buying car exhaust.

Witnesses to smelling gunpowder at street level:
•   Ralph Yarborough was in the car two cars behind the Presidents car and said he smelled gunpowder. He is a war veteran with more than 50 years experience with fire arms. WC Vol VII, pg 439
•   Earl Brown, Dallas Police Patrolman – “Heard shot’s and then smelled gunpowder” WC Vol VI, pg 233
•   Elizabeth Cabell, wife of Dallas mayor, said “acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder”  WC Vol VII, pg 486
•   Billy J. Martin, patrolman - “You could smell the gunpowder… you knew he wasn’t far away. When you’re that close, you can smell the powder burning. Why you—you’ve got to be pretty close to them… you could smell the gunpowder… right there in the street.”
•   Congressman Ray Roberts, seated next to her, had mentioned it also. Same source as Martin
•   Tom C. Dillard, two cars behind the Cabell car, he “. . . very definitely smelled gunpowder when the cars moved up to the corner [of Elm and Houston Streets] Same source as Martin
•   Virgie Rackley stood in front of the depository building close to the street. “She recalled that after the second shot, she smelled gun smoke…” same source as Martin
•   One newspaper summed it up: “. . . seconds later the cavalcade was gone. The area still reeked with the smell of gunpowder.” Same source as Martin

[Michael Carney]

JO, yes, the Dal Tex building because of the angles are similar. It came to mind because there have been witnesses that claimed they saw a shooter or heard a shot(s) come from that direction. I have also read that they, Marcello’s group, put a shooter in there. But again, no one would have smelled gunpowder with the wind direction.

[Michael Carney]

A lower trajectory slope would exit more up towards the apex, and thus cause a smaller gaping exit wound.

 JO, I don’t know much about the physics of what a frangible round does except explode once it hits something and from everything I have seen it usually gets inside what it hit and explodes. I think the exit explosions result would depend on things like thickness of the skull in the vicinity of the explosion.   I leave those kinds of things up to the experts like Howard Donahue and Colin McLaren.

[Jerry Organ]

I don’t understand what you, JO, mean by “Ok, we got through to you”

You went from claiming (or agreeing with):

   "Howard Donohue went through the Warren Report and found eleven witnesses
     that put the AR15 in Agent Hickeys hand at the time of the third shot. Of the
     eleven witnesses, seven are Secret Service agents."

to ....

    "So there are a lot of people seeing the AR15 in Hickey’s hand, some thinking he fired it."

Unless you think both claims amount to the same thing.

Witnesses to Hickey holding and possibly firing a “rifle”:
•   Dallas Mayor, Earl Cabel. see’s one Secret Service agent standup with a sub-machine gun.
•   Senator Yarbrough also saw a rifle.
•   Agent Winston rides in the front of JFK in the lead car. He noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow up car, “I first thought that    he had fired it”.

Those three we established only saw Hickey with the rifle AFTER the fatal shot. Lawson (Winston) based his thought that Hickey had fired his gun on a thought he had, not from actually witnessing it:

    "the first thing that flashed through my mind, this was the only weapon I had seen,
     was that he had fired because this was the only weapon I had seen up to that time."

•   Sam Holland, a witness, is standing on top of the underpass as the motorcade is going under him. “After the first shot, the Secret Service agent raised up with a machine gun and dropped back down into the seat. WC Vol XIX, ex 5323, pg 480

Interesting that attention is not given to the part in the same affidavit where Holland pins the "first shot" to the head shot:

    "After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and
     tried to get over in the back seat to him."

Now that's perfectly consistent with when Hickey raised up the rifle, that is, AFTER the head shot. Holland or the transcriber got something mixed up when they associate the "first shot" with the head hsot.

•   Roy Kellerman testified there was an AR15 in the motorcade.
•   Hugh Betner saw one Secret Service agent pull out a gun, he was standing watching the motorcade. vol XXIV, ex 2003, pg 200
•   A police officer on the over pass as the motorcade passing under saw an agent swinging around the gun.
•   Margaret Chisolm WC vol XIX, ex 5323, pg 472 saw agents stand up and sit back down.
•   Jean Hill – Saw JFK grab his chest and fall forward and she thinks she saw men in plain clothes shooting back. WC Vol XXIV, Ex 2003, pg 212
•   Ralph Yarborough saw a SS Agent pull out a rifle. WC Vol VII, pg 439

That's nice. But you have to establish whether they actually saw Hickey with the rifle in his hands at the moment of the fatal shot.