JFK from Air Force 1 to Bethesda by helicopter

[Martin Weidmann]

The handles were broken off the casket. Maybe this is why there was confusion.

The only confusion seems to be in your mind.

How can Paul O'Connor and others remove Kennedy's body from a shipping casket, if the body was in the casket delivered by the hearse that also carried Jackie and Robert Kennedy?

[Martin Weidmann]

Oh god, why do people keep thinking this and continue to talk about it? Why do plausibility and real-world events constantly get thrown out the window for some ridiculous fairy tale that Lifton cooked up and made a million bucks on?

How in the world would anyone know that early in the game what could possibly have happened in Dallas to start some stirring of stealing the body and performing all manner of body alterations? They had absolutely NO IDEA at that point what happened on Elm Street. None. So how in the world would they even know what to alter? And yet, to this day goofy people STILL believe goofy stories like the body being thrown down into the cargo hold and whisked away on a helicopter in full view of the widow, his brother and live TV cameras and TV lights. Whisked away so mad doctors with scalpels at the ready did "all manner" of body alterations.

Why? Why do people still believe this crap?

Why do plausibility and real-world events constantly get thrown out the window for some ridiculous fairy tale

What plausible and real-world event are you talking about?

How in the world would anyone know that early in the game what could possibly have happened in Dallas to start some stirring of stealing the body and performing all manner of body alterations? They had absolutely NO IDEA at that point what happened on Elm Street. None. So how in the world would they even know what to alter?

What makes you say that they had no idea what happened on Elm Street?

And yet, to this day goofy people STILL believe goofy stories like the body being thrown down into the cargo hold and whisked away on a helicopter in full view of the widow, his brother and live TV cameras and TV lights. Whisked away so mad doctors with scalpels at the ready did "all manner" of body alterations.

Really? Is that what "goofy" people believe? Seems to me you prefer to make it easy on yourself to dismiss whatever evidence you don't like. Sure, Lifton's conclusion that the body must have been removed from the casket on the plane has it's problems, but one thing is for sure: Something did happen with the body somewhere!

How else can you explain that Paul O'Connor and others removed Kennedy's body from a shipping casket? How do you explain that Jerrol Custer told the ARRB that he was taking X-rays of Kennedy's body to be developed when he saw Jacky and Robert Kennedy arrive? Are they all lying? Are the people who brought in and saw the shipping casket lying? And if they are, why would they wait 15 years before they told their story to the HSCA? The people Lifton presents to us in his book and on video never made a penny from what they told him. They had nothing to gain and everything to lose, so why would all those men lie and tell a story that combined justified on only one conclusion?

Why? Why do people still believe this crap?

Why do you think it's crap?

Is it that you just don't want to believe it, that you can't wrap your head around a possibility you don't like, or do you actually have something more to bring to the discussion than just a biased opinion? Remember, "I don't believe it could have happened that way, so it didn't happen that way" isn't a particularly persuasive argument!

[Michael Walton]

For goodness sake, don't play coy here, Martin. Even as late as 11/27, the newspapers were reporting him turning almost completely around to take the shot in the temple. That day, the doctors were saying a shot in the temple. The cops were sending officers up to the overpass, then to the TSBD. But they still didn't know what happened. Even at the autopsy they couldn't figure out the direction of the shots. Only when the lawyers got a hold of things did they start formulating the official story, that Oswald alone acted and fired the shots from behind.

So tell us here - how would they have known what parts of the body to alter before the official autopsy happened when they didn't even know or have the full details yet? You seem to think that the bevy of doctors with scalpels at the ready would magically be able to cut into the head to "alter" things. It's a dumb theory, Martin.

There were plenty of Kennedy loyalists on the plane that day, Martin, who would have started a fight to have allowed some evil conspirator to open up the casket and throw it down into the cargo hold. And by the way, Martin, who was that evil conspirator on the plane who took the body out? Who, Martin? You say Dave's theory is problematic - it's even worst than that. It's ridiculous because it's a flight of fancy and never happened.



I advise you to read these links:

http://www.patspeer.com/yourpagestitle

and

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter1b%3Aclearingthingsup

[Martin Weidmann]

For goodness sake, don't play coy here, Martin. Even as late as 11/27, the newspapers were reporting him turning almost completely around to take the shot in the temple. That day, the doctors were saying a shot in the temple. The cops were sending officers up to the overpass, then to the TSBD. But they still didn't know what happened. Even at the autopsy they couldn't figure out the direction of the shots. Only when the lawyers got a hold of things did they start formulating the official story, that Oswald alone acted and fired the shots from behind.

So tell us here - how would they have known what parts of the body to alter before the official autopsy happened when they didn't even know or have the full details yet? You seem to think that the bevy of doctors with scalpels at the ready would magically be able to cut into the head to "alter" things. It's a dumb theory, Martin.

There were plenty of Kennedy loyalists on the plane that day, Martin, who would have started a fight to have allowed some evil conspirator to open up the casket and throw it down into the cargo hold. And by the way, Martin, who was that evil conspirator on the plane who took the body out? Who, Martin? You say Dave's theory is problematic - it's even worst than that. It's ridiculous because it's a flight of fancy and never happened.



I advise you to read these links:

http://www.patspeer.com/yourpagestitle

and

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter1b%3Aclearingthingsup

For goodness sake, don't play coy here, Martin.

Am I?

Even as late as 11/27, the newspapers were reporting him turning almost completely around to take the shot in the temple. That day, the doctors were saying a shot in the temple. The cops were sending officers up to the overpass, then to the TSBD. But they still didn't know what happened.

Who are "they"?

Even at the autopsy they couldn't figure out the direction of the shots.

Really? I seem to recall autopsy photos of a bullet hole in Kennedy's back and head? The only thing they missed was the throat wound, which the doctors in Dallas said it was a wound of entry but the autopsy doctors nevertheless concluded that it was an exit wound. And they made that determination based on a phone call and an assumption rather than a proper examination. Go figure....

Only when the lawyers got a hold of things did they start formulating the official story, that Oswald alone acted and fired the shots from behind.

What lawyers and what "things" did they get hold of? Be precise!

So tell us here - how would they have known what parts of the body to alter before the official autopsy happened when they didn't even know or have the full details yet?

You keep saying that, but you really need to explain what "full details" were missing. An autopsy doctor doesn't need to know about the crime scene and the location(s) of victim(s) and shooter(s). All an autopsy doctor needs to do is examine the body and determine where the shots came from. An autopsy doctor is not a crime scene investigator. If - and this is hypothetical - the instruction was that the wounds on the body had to reflect shots from the back, the doctors would have had all the information they needed.

You seem to think that the bevy of doctors with scalpels at the ready would magically be able to cut into the head to "alter" things. It's a dumb theory, Martin.

It's also a theory that lives in your head only. I never said anything of the kind, so why don't you stop making assumptions and provide some facts instead.

There were plenty of Kennedy loyalists on the plane that day, Martin, who would have started a fight to have allowed some evil conspirator to open up the casket and throw it down into the cargo hold. And by the way, Martin, who was that evil conspirator on the plane who took the body out? Who, Martin?

All you seem to be able to do is ask questions to which I couldn't possibly have the answers. At the same time you seem also unable to provide an answer to my question about the HSCA testimony of Paul O'Connor, Jerrol Custer and others. Why is that? Is it easier to dismiss the theory about what could have happened on the plane and ignore the rest? Is that it?

You say Dave's theory is problematic - it's even worst than that. It's ridiculous because it's a flight of fancy and never happened.

Let's get one thing straight; You were not there and don't have a clue about what happened or not! All you've got is an opinion. Now, that's fine, but when you voice that opinion and present it as fact you should really try to make it more persuasive by - for instance - also explaining how and why Kennedy's body ended up in a body bag and in a shipping casket.

Now, before I confuse you any further. I do indeed consider Lifton's theory about a body snatch on the plane somewhat problematic and it may well be that it never happened. But if that's true, there needs to be another explanantion for how Kennedy's body could leave Dallas in a ornamental casket and arrive at Bethesda in a grey shipping casket. So, what happened there?

I advise you to read these links:

http://www.patspeer.com/yourpagestitle

and

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter1b%3Aclearingthingsup

Thanks for the advise. Now why don't you tell me what you have taken away from Pat Speer's writings?

[Mike Orr]

Why would so many Doctors and Nurses at Parkland talk of the blown out hole in the back of JFK's head that they had seen ! Arlen Specter asked Clint Hill at his Warren Commission Testimony . Mr. Specter --What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital ? Mr. Hill -- The right rear portion of his head was missing . It was lying in the rear seat of his car. His brain was exposed .There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car . Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood . There was so much blood that you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not , except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head !  Clint Hill told the truth . He was right there ! As per the radio transmission between the plane and the White House about the helicopter to take the body of JFK , it is right on the radio transmission . The JFK casket which was empty was taken off one side and put in the grey Navy ambulance along with Jackie & Bobby Kennedy while JFK's body was taken off the jet from the other side and placed in the helicopter in the dark ! That is the reason for JFK's body to have time to be altered . If you saw the gash that was made for the throat frontal entry you would have thought that Dr. Malcolm Perry was a butcher . Dr. Malcolm Perry made the Trach. incision on top of the bullet hole which Perry said was an entry wound . Dr. Robert McClelland's said that Dr. Perry was very skilled with the scalpel and there would not be an incision that looked like a gash that was seen at Bethesda . Dr. McClellands position at the head of the gurney on which Kennedy lay gave him a close look at the severe wound at the  back of the Presidents head . The  :posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted , " he told the Commission . About a 1/3 of the Presidents brain tissue was gone , Dr. McClelland said !

[Martin Weidmann]

Let's try a hypothetical scenario for a second.

Most people can't figure out how a magic trick works until it is explained to them. That's when they all go; "is it really that simple? Now why didn't I think of that?" An essential part of any magic trick is misdirection.

In the conversations between Airforce One and the White House the possibility of a decoy hearse was one of the things being discussed as well as transportation of the body to Bethesda by helicopter. So, here's the hypothetical; what if the use of a decoy came into play when Kennedy's body was still at Parkland Hospital? What if the ornamental casket was empty all along and merely served as a decoy to draw attention away from the actual transportation of the body to Love Field?

In other words, what if Kennedy's body was already removed from the ornamental casket and placed in a inconspicuous grey shipping casket at Parkland Hospital?

[John Tonkovich]

Let's try a hypothetical scenario for a second.

Most people can't figure out how a magic trick works until it is explained to them. That's when they all go; "is it really that simple? Now why didn't I think of that?" An essential part of any magic trick is misdirection.

In the conversations between Airforce One and the White House the possibility of a decoy hearse was one of the things being discussed as well as transportation of the body to Bethesda by helicopter. So, here's the hypothetical; what if the use of a decoy came into play when Kennedy's body was still at Parkland Hospital? What if the ornamental casket was empty all along and merely served as a decoy to draw attention away from the actual transportation of the body to Love Field?

In other words, what if Kennedy's body was already removed from the ornamental casket and placed in a inconspicuous grey shipping casket at Parkland Hospital?

And Parklnd personnel and Secret Servicemen all said nothing, for the next 50+ years?  because?
the second Oswald is out there, on the prowl?

[Martin Weidmann]

And Parklnd personnel and Secret Servicemen all said nothing, for the next 50+ years?  because?
the second Oswald is out there, on the prowl?

What Parkland personnel and Secret Servicemen would that be, exactly?

The most important part of using a decoy operation is that, except for those directly involved, nobody knows anything about it. A decoy is about misdirection. When Kennedy was declared dead everybody left the emergency unit. The last persons, we know of, to see the President at Parkland were the people who put his body in the ornamental casket. What happened after that is anybody's guess.

Just how long after the body had been placed in the ornamental casket did the Secret Service men steal (because that's what it was) the casket? Could all the commotion about taking Kennedy to Washington have been the distraction they needed to sneak the shipping casket out of the hospital? It's a hypothetical scenario but can it be dismissed as wrong?

Do you have another plausible explanation for how Paul O'Connor and others could have removed Kennedy, in a body bag, from a grey shipping casket? There needs to be an explanation for that, unless of course you dismiss their combined testimony to the HSCA as lies. Are you one of those people who does that?