The "Domino Room Alibi"

[David Von Pein]

At The Education Forum, Lance Payette has made several excellent points regarding Lee Harvey Oswald's so-called "Domino Room Alibi". If you'd like to take a gander, here's the link....

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26009-who-was-mrs-robert-reid/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-406382

As an addendum to Lance's comments on this matter, I'd like to also point out the following fact (which Lance has not mentioned [as yet anyway])....

For the sake of argument, even if all three of the individuals being discussed in the "Domino Room Alibi" discussion (Jarman, Norman, and Oswald) were, in fact, together at the same time in or near the Domino Room on the first floor of the Book Depository Building shortly before JFK was killed on 11/22/63, that fact most certainly does not exonerate Lee Harvey Oswald as President Kennedy's assassin.

Why?

Because we know that two of those three people—James Jarman Jr. and Harold Norman—were present on the south side of the fifth floor of the TSBD at the time of the assassination. They were photographed by Tom Dillard just seconds after the last shot was fired.

Therefore, since we know that Jarman and Norman had the capability of getting from the first-floor Domino Room to an upper floor of the Depository prior to the time when President Kennedy arrived at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets, then why wouldn't Lee Harvey Oswald have possessed that same capability?

Conspiracy theorists would no doubt argue that the above scenario is not very realistic, in that it would be hard to believe that a person who was planning on killing the President would have been located on the first floor (and at the back of the building) at a time when he should have been in his sniper's perch on the sixth floor waiting for the President to arrive in Dealey Plaza.

But there are several "unknown" factors associated with Lee Oswald's pre-assassination actions and mindset that have never been proven or firmly established—such as the "unknown" answers to these three questions:

Where and when did Oswald assemble his rifle (and how long did it take him to do so)?

and...

How long did it take Oswald to construct his "Sniper's Nest" of boxes?

and...

What exactly was Oswald thinking in the hours and minutes leading up to JFK's arrival?

I'm not saying that I think that Oswald was in the Domino Room with Jarman and Norman just a few minutes before the assassination. I don't believe he was. But I am saying that the so-called "Domino Room Alibi", which many conspiracy theorists think is some sort of rock-solid proof of Lee Harvey Oswald's innocence, is really nothing of the kind—even if Oswald had been located in that Domino Room a few minutes before 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963.

[Royell Storing]

     Your saying Oswald had time to get into the sniper's is a double edged sword. This time variable would also apply to Oswald claiming to have gone outside to watch the "Pr Parade" per the alleged Hosty Notes of Oswald's very 1st interrogation.

[David Von Pein]

     Your saying Oswald had time to get into the sniper's is a double edged sword. This time variable would also apply to Oswald claiming to have gone outside to watch the "Pr Parade" per the alleged Hosty Notes of Oswald's very 1st interrogation.

I don't think your example is analogous to mine at all. Please elaborate further.

[Royell Storing]

I don't think your example is analogous to mine at all. Please elaborate further.

    If you are buying into Oswald being Down in the Domino Room on the 1st FLOOR and having time to reach the 6th floor, he certainly has that same amount of time to eventually amble out of the TSBD to watch the "Pr Parade". Why would anyone planning on firing a rifle out of the 6th Floor of the TSBD horse around on the 1st Floor mere minutes prior to the JFK Limo passing by? Putting Oswald inside that 1st Floor Domino Room makes it FAR more likely for him to go out the front door and watch the "Pr Parade", vs his hustling up to the 6th floor and climbing into the sniper's nest. Anybody at any point during that journey could have seen him heading for/climbing into the 6th Floor sniper's nest.  If you believe Oswald fired the Carcano, You need to stay away from even considering his being inside the Domino Room. 

[David Von Pein]

    If you are buying into Oswald being Down in the Domino Room on the 1st FLOOR and having time to reach the 6th floor, he certainly has that same amount of time to eventually amble out of the TSBD to watch the "Pr Parade". Why would anyone planning on firing a rifle out of the 6th Floor of the TSBD horse around on the 1st Floor mere minutes prior to the JFK Limo passing by? Putting Oswald inside that 1st Floor Domino Room makes it FAR more likely for him to go out the front door and watch the "Pr Parade", vs his hustling up to the 6th floor and climbing into the sniper's nest. Anybody at any point during that journey could have seen him heading for/climbing into the 6th Floor sniper's nest.  If you believe Oswald fired the Carcano, You need to stay away from even considering his being inside the Domino Room.

I was merely pointing out a verified FACT---i.e., that even if LHO had been in or near the Domino Room at approximately 12:25 PM CST on 11/22/63, it would NOT give Oswald an alibi for 12:30 PM when the President was shot.

A related thought....

At another forum a few years ago, an LNer named Bud put a theory on the table that I thought was kind of interesting. It can never be proven, of course, but I thought it was intriguing nevertheless....

Bud's speculation was that Oswald might have gone back downstairs to the first-floor Domino Room shortly before he assassinated the President in order to retrieve the rifle bullets that he had forgotten to take up to the sixth floor earlier in the day. (I think Bud was theorizing that Oswald probably had the bullets in the pocket of his blue coat which was later found in the Domino Room.)*

Such a quick bullet-retrieving trip could have afforded Oswald the opportunity to see James Jarman and Harold Norman as they entered the building via the loading dock door at the rear of the TSBD. Oswald would have then hustled right back up to the sixth floor after grabbing the bullets. Time elapsed for such an excursion would likely have been less than 3 minutes.

* EDIT/FWIW -- Shortly after I posted the above comments, I looked up Bud's original 2011 Internet message regarding this topic of Oswald's rifle bullets. Here is that message:

"He [Oswald] doesn't need to see them [Jarman & Norman] on the first [floor], he only needs to have seen them outside, and heard them come in down below him. And it doesn't matter if he did see them on the first floor, I've always felt it was possible for a smart guy like Oswald to keep the bullets apart from the rifle, to allow for deniability if the rifle was discovered. If he left the bullets in his jacket pocket in the Domino room and went down to retrieve them, he might have seen them (although you [Donald Willis] are nowhere near establishing that he did with the weak out-of-context nonsense you are trying to use for support). You see, it doesn't matter if Oswald was on the first floor then, it doesn't afford him an alibi, nobody was killed then. It doesn't matter when the motorcade was due to arrive, if circumstances prevented Oswald from getting to where he hid the rifle, or he had trouble assembling it, these things would dictate more than the clock." -- Bud; July 1, 2011

[John Mytton]

I was merely pointing out a verified FACT---i.e., that even if LHO had been in or near the Domino Room at approximately 12:25 PM CST on 11/22/63, it would NOT give Oswald an alibi for 12:30 PM when the President was shot.

A related thought....

At another forum a few years ago, an LNer named Bud put a theory on the table that I thought was kind of interesting. It can never be proven, of course, but I thought it was intriguing nevertheless....

Bud's speculation was that Oswald might have gone back downstairs to the first-floor Domino Room shortly before he assassinated the President in order to retrieve the rifle bullets that he had forgotten to take up to the sixth floor earlier in the day. (I think Bud was theorizing that Oswald probably had the bullets in the pocket of his blue coat which was later found in the Domino Room.) Such a quick bullet-retrieving trip could have afforded Oswald the opportunity to see James Jarman and Harold Norman as they entered the building via the loading dock door at the rear of the TSBD. Oswald would have then hustled right back up to the sixth floor after grabbing the bullets. Time elapsed for such an excursion would likely have been less than 3 minutes.

Besides the people in the doorway Oswald would have had a decent view of everything and everyone below and I reckon he would have had a good reason to suss out who was where, and Oswald could have seen Jarman and Norman walk back towards the the building and after Oswald possibly heard them talking on the floor below naturally came to the conclusion that they were both moving around the TSBD together?

Norman and Jarman were a fair distance apart and imo a conversation would have required a louder than ordinary speaking voice.



JohnM

[Colin Crow]

Besides the people in the doorway Oswald would have had a decent view of everything and everyone below and I reckon he would have had a good reason to suss out who was where, and Oswald could have seen Jarman and Norman walk back towards the the building and after Oswald possibly heard them talking on the floor below naturally came to the conclusion that they were both moving around the TSBD together?

Norman and Jarman were a fair distance apart and imo a conversation would have required a louder than ordinary speaking voice.



JohnM

Where do you theorise that Oswald was when he noticed them John? Sitting next to BRW in the SN? 

[Royell Storing]

I was merely pointing out a verified FACT---i.e., that even if LHO had been in or near the Domino Room at approximately 12:25 PM CST on 11/22/63, it would NOT give Oswald an alibi for 12:30 PM when the President was shot.

A related thought....

At another forum a few years ago, an LNer named Bud put a theory on the table that I thought was kind of interesting. It can never be proven, of course, but I thought it was intriguing nevertheless....

Bud's speculation was that Oswald might have gone back downstairs to the first-floor Domino Room shortly before he assassinated the President in order to retrieve the rifle bullets that he had forgotten to take up to the sixth floor earlier in the day. (I think Bud was theorizing that Oswald probably had the bullets in the pocket of his blue coat which was later found in the Domino Room.) Such a quick bullet-retrieving trip could have afforded Oswald the opportunity to see James Jarman and Harold Norman as they entered the building via the loading dock door at the rear of the TSBD. Oswald would have then hustled right back up to the sixth floor after grabbing the bullets. Time elapsed for such an excursion would likely have been less than 3 minutes.

     Regarding possible forgotten bullets, where does the Carcano Clip come into this? It would be far easier to already have the bullets in the, "now you see it, now you don't" Carcano Clip.