The "Domino Room Alibi"

[David Von Pein]

Oswald clearly intended to place himself at a location which he had seen Norman and Jarman pass by just minutes prior to the shots. That, IMO, was the intended alibi instead of that Norman and/or Jarman had seen him. All the latter two really needed to be asked was if they passed by the Domino room minutes prior to the shots. No need for them to see Oswald, just confirmation that they were there where Oswald said he saw them would have sufficed.

Unfortunately Jarman and Norman were (IMO) asked the wrong questions about having eaten lunch with Oswald or even seeing him.

Having said this, I would be interested in why you feel this is not the correct solution, David?

You could very well be right. Perhaps that is the correct solution.

But, as discussed earlier, it still does not provide Oswald with an alibi for precisely 12:30 PM.

[Thomas Graves]

You could very well be right. Perhaps that is the correct solution.

But, as discussed earlier, it still does not provide Oswald with an alibi for precisely 12:30 PM.

Especially if he already had the rifle locked, loaded and stashed up there near the nest.

But, then again, why wouldn't he have been up there from about 12:05 on, waiting for the delayed motorcade to arrive?

The Wikipedia article I posted said the motorcade was scheduled to arrive at Dealey Plaza at 12:10 ...

--  MWT   

[Colin Crow]

You could very well be right. Perhaps that is the correct solution.

But, as discussed earlier, it still does not provide Oswald with an alibi for precisely 12:30 PM.

Perhaps you could provide your understanding of Oswald's movements after the Piper interaction about noon. I take it you believe Oswald was the man with the rifle Rowland saw at 12.15pm. We then know the assembly of the rifle occurred before this time. Do you believe Givens "cigarette story"? If so, when did this occur? I assume prior to BRW's arrival on the 6th floor. Prior to Piper's sighting or after? At 12.15 where was BRW? At what time approximately did Oswald finally enter the SN? If he did see Jarman and Norman pass the domino room on their way to the 5th floor, I assume he used the stairs to get to the 6th floor.....right?

[Martin Weidmann]

You could very well be right. Perhaps that is the correct solution.

But, as discussed earlier, it still does not provide Oswald with an alibi for precisely 12:30 PM.

I have already agreed that Oswald could have made it to the 6th floor in roughly the same time Jarman and Norman needed to reach the 5th.

However I also did raise some points which make it at least somewhat unlikely that Oswald would have made it to the 6th floor with merely minutes, perhaps even seconds, to spare to see a motorcade pass by which was some 15 minutes late. If this is the scenario you wish to go by, you need to explain the observations made by several witnesses who saw movements in the 6th floor window well before Oswald (in this scenario) could have gotten there.

Having said that, I still would be interested to hear from you why you feel this is not the correct solution, David?

[Gary Craig]

90 seconds after the last shot he was seen in 2nd floor lunchroom by Baker and Truly. Yet photos taken by Dillard
(30 sec. after last shot) and Powell (App. 2 minutes after the last shot) show someone was moving boxes in the SN.

Let's examine the chronology....Dillard supposedly snapped his photo about 30 seconds after the last shot was fired...

The Warren Commission said that Lee Oswald was seen in the second floor lunchroom by DPD officer Marrion Baker less that 90 seconds after the shooting .

The boxes were allegedly moved sometime AFTER Tom Dillard snapped the photo which they said was taken 30 seconds after the shooting....So if LHO was the shooter and he was moving boxes around, then he couldn't have departed for the lunchroom immediately after the shooting and he would have had less than 60 seconds to reach the lunchroom ahead of Baker and Truly...  And that would have been impossible!

I believe that Powell took the first photo a few minutes before the shooting....and the man with the rifle bumped the light weight Rolling Readers box and displaced it AFTER Powell had snapped his photo....Then a few minutes later when Dillard took his photo the box was not in the same position as it had been when Powell snapped shutter.   

I think the time and place Dillard took his photo can be pinpointed because he was riding in a car in the parade and it's position relative to 12:30 can be determinded from film and photos.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=69117
"The panel studied two photographs taken within minutes of the assassination. While no human face or form could be detected
in the sixth floor southeast window, the panel was able to conclude that a stack of boxes had been rearranged during the
interval of the taking of the two photographs


Lillian Mooneyham
a.Dallas County court clerk watching motorcade from Judge King's windows on the second floor, southwest corner, Criminal
Courts Bldg, with Mrs. Rose Clark and Jeannette Hooker.
b. Heard three shots.
c. Heard first shot;saw President slump; thought it was firecracker.
d. Second and third shots were closer together.
e. Saw Mrs. Kennedy climb on back of car.
f. Mooneyham went to Judge Hyer's windows on the third floor of Records Bldg.
g. People running to pergola.
h. 41/2 to 5 minutes after shots she sees man standing behind some boxes on the 6th floor, TSBD. 

[David Von Pein]

@ Colin and Martin....

Allow me to copy something I wrote nine years ago concerning the general "Who Saw Oswald And When?" topic we're discussing today. (Having material dealing with various sub-topics already archived at my own website saves a lot of time, vs. having to type everything all over again.) ....

---- quote on: ----

"Piper said he last saw Oswald "just at 12 o'clock" [6 H 383]. ....
Givens said he last saw Oswald "about 5 minutes to 12" [6 H 351]. (I'm
guessing that CTers want to make David Belin out to be a liar and a
schemer by the fact that he seems to cut off Givens right after Givens
says "5 minutes to 12". I'm sure that some conspiracists think Belin
was stopping Givens from saying something like this: "...because it
was right before I saw Malcolm Wallace in the building; Wallace had a
rifle and some spent shells in his hand; as I was going back down in
the elevator, he told me that he needed to get back up to the sixth
floor to start planting a bunch of stuff; I really didn't understand
what Mac was talking about though, Mr. Belin, so I just came on back
down and ate my lunch.")

Bill Shelley said he last saw Oswald on November 22 on the first floor
"10 or 15 minutes before 12" [7 H 390].

But the Warren Commission and its counsel were smart enough to know
that ALL of these times for the various "Last Sightings Of Oswald" are
only approximate times. They are, of course, just guesses on the part
of the people who supplied the information -- from Givens, to Shelley,
to Piper, and all the other TSBD witnesses too.

At the time of their "I Saw Oswald" observations on November 22nd,
none of these people had any reason at all to take notice of the EXACT
time they saw another employee walking around the building. They were
later asked to reconstruct (as best they could) the timing of certain
events.

And the timing of seeing Oswald in the building is an event that was
undoubtedly so completely insignificant and unimportant to each one of
those witnesses at the time it was occurring that they had no way to
reconstruct with precision the times at which they saw Oswald.

It was, however, around lunchtime for these employees (around
noontime). So that fact ("lunch") helps out when it comes to the
times. But as some of the witnesses also said--they apparently broke
for lunch a little earlier than their normal time on November 22 (to
see the President).

But, overall, the "timing" issue is far from being exact. And, as I
said, the Warren Commission knew that this was the case in the first
place. They HAD to know it. They were asking a group of people to
search their memories for the time of an event (seeing Lee Harvey
Oswald) that meant absolutely NOTHING to each one of those people at
the time when it occurred.

And while Charles Givens' cigarette trip back up to the sixth floor
does, indeed, put Oswald on the sixth floor after Bill Shelley's
stated time of having last seen Oswald that day--we're still only
talking about a matter of about five minutes (in approximated time).

Givens could easily have been off in his time by 5 or 10 minutes.
Maybe more. We can never know for certain. And the same thing applies
to Eddie Piper and William Shelley and Bonnie Ray Williams and all the
rest of the TSBD witnesses.

But to think that a bunch of random estimated times supplied by the
Depository employees is enough to exonerate Lee Oswald for shooting
JFK is just not a reasonable position to take.

The bottom line is this -- We know that Lee Harvey Oswald was on an
upper floor of the TSBD at some point in time that was shortly before
12:00 noon on 11/22/63, because the four men in the elevator race
(Williams, Givens, Arce, and Lovelady) all corroborate that single
event -- Oswald being on an upper floor of the building at the time
when those four men were descending to the first floor FOR THEIR
LUNCH BREAK, WHICH WAS OBVIOUSLY PRETTY CLOSE TO NOONTIME
ON NOVEMBER 22." -- DVP; September 7, 2010

----------------------------------------------------------

Also see my "Oswald Timeline" below:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html

----------------------------------------------------------

[Martin Weidmann]

@ Colin and Martin....

Allow me to copy something I wrote nine years ago concerning the general "Who Saw Oswald And When?" topic we're discussing today. (Having material dealing with various sub-topics already archived at my own website saves a lot of time, vs. having to type everything all over again.) ....

---- quote on: ----

"Piper said he last saw Oswald "just at 12 o'clock" [6 H 383]. ....
Givens said he last saw Oswald "about 5 minutes to 12" [6 H 351]. (I'm
guessing that CTers want to make David Belin out to be a liar and a
schemer by the fact that he seems to cut off Givens right after Givens
says "5 minutes to 12". I'm sure that some conspiracists think Belin
was stopping Givens from saying something like this: "...because it
was right before I saw Malcolm Wallace in the building; Wallace had a
rifle and some spent shells in his hand; as I was going back down in
the elevator, he told me that he needed to get back up to the sixth
floor to start planting a bunch of stuff; I really didn't understand
what Mac was talking about though, Mr. Belin, so I just came on back
down and ate my lunch.")

Bill Shelley said he last saw Oswald on November 22 on the first floor
"10 or 15 minutes before 12" [7 H 390].

But the Warren Commission and its counsel were smart enough to know
that ALL of these times for the various "Last Sightings Of Oswald" are
only approximate times. They are, of course, just guesses on the part
of the people who supplied the information -- from Givens, to Shelley,
to Piper, and all the other TSBD witnesses too.

At the time of their "I Saw Oswald" observations on November 22nd,
none of these people had any reason at all to take notice of the EXACT
time they saw another employee walking around the building. They were
later asked to reconstruct (as best they could) the timing of certain
events.

And the timing of seeing Oswald in the building is an event that was
undoubtedly so completely insignificant and unimportant to each one of
those witnesses at the time it was occurring that they had no way to
reconstruct with precision the times at which they saw Oswald.

It was, however, around lunchtime for these employees (around
noontime). So that fact ("lunch") helps out when it comes to the
times. But as some of the witnesses also said--they apparently broke
for lunch a little earlier than their normal time on November 22 (to
see the President).

But, overall, the "timing" issue is far from being exact. And, as I
said, the Warren Commission knew that this was the case in the first
place. They HAD to know it. They were asking a group of people to
search their memories for the time of an event (seeing Lee Harvey
Oswald) that meant absolutely NOTHING to each one of those people at
the time when it occurred.

And while Charles Givens' cigarette trip back up to the sixth floor
does, indeed, put Oswald on the sixth floor after Bill Shelley's
stated time of having last seen Oswald that day--we're still only
talking about a matter of about five minutes (in approximated time).

Givens could easily have been off in his time by 5 or 10 minutes.
Maybe more. We can never know for certain. And the same thing applies
to Eddie Piper and William Shelley and Bonnie Ray Williams and all the
rest of the TSBD witnesses.

But to think that a bunch of random estimated times supplied by the
Depository employees is enough to exonerate Lee Oswald for shooting
JFK is just not a reasonable position to take.

The bottom line is this -- We know that Lee Harvey Oswald was on an
upper floor of the TSBD at some point in time that was shortly before
12:00 noon on 11/22/63, because the four men in the elevator race
(Williams, Givens, Arce, and Lovelady) all corroborate that single
event -- Oswald being on an upper floor of the building at the time
when those four men were descending to the first floor FOR THEIR
LUNCH BREAK, WHICH WAS OBVIOUSLY PRETTY CLOSE TO NOONTIME
ON NOVEMBER 22." -- DVP; September 7, 2010

----------------------------------------------------------

Also see my "Oswald Timeline" below:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html

----------------------------------------------------------

David,

But to think that a bunch of random estimated times supplied by the Depository employees is enough to exonerate Lee Oswald for shooting JFK is just not a reasonable position to take.

Agreed, but none of this really deals with my question about why you feel this is not the correct solution, as you previously said.

Also, the movements of Jarman and Norman, during the minutes prior to the shots, are pretty well documented. We know they were in front of the building and we also know that ended up on the 5th floor just prior to the shooting. We also know how they got there, which narrows their passing through the 1st floor to only a window of a couple of minutes, which is of course precisely where Oswald said he saw them. So, how do we explain this?

[Colin Crow]

@ Colin and Martin....

Allow me to copy something I wrote nine years ago concerning the general "Who Saw Oswald And When?" topic we're discussing today. (Having material dealing with various sub-topics already archived at my own website saves a lot of time, vs. having to type everything all over again.) ....

---- quote on: ----

"Piper said he last saw Oswald "just at 12 o'clock" [6 H 383]. ....
Givens said he last saw Oswald "about 5 minutes to 12" [6 H 351]. (I'm
guessing that CTers want to make David Belin out to be a liar and a
schemer by the fact that he seems to cut off Givens right after Givens
says "5 minutes to 12". I'm sure that some conspiracists think Belin
was stopping Givens from saying something like this: "...because it
was right before I saw Malcolm Wallace in the building; Wallace had a
rifle and some spent shells in his hand; as I was going back down in
the elevator, he told me that he needed to get back up to the sixth
floor to start planting a bunch of stuff; I really didn't understand
what Mac was talking about though, Mr. Belin, so I just came on back
down and ate my lunch.")

Bill Shelley said he last saw Oswald on November 22 on the first floor
"10 or 15 minutes before 12" [7 H 390].

But the Warren Commission and its counsel were smart enough to know
that ALL of these times for the various "Last Sightings Of Oswald" are
only approximate times. They are, of course, just guesses on the part
of the people who supplied the information -- from Givens, to Shelley,
to Piper, and all the other TSBD witnesses too.

At the time of their "I Saw Oswald" observations on November 22nd,
none of these people had any reason at all to take notice of the EXACT
time they saw another employee walking around the building. They were
later asked to reconstruct (as best they could) the timing of certain
events.

And the timing of seeing Oswald in the building is an event that was
undoubtedly so completely insignificant and unimportant to each one of
those witnesses at the time it was occurring that they had no way to
reconstruct with precision the times at which they saw Oswald.

It was, however, around lunchtime for these employees (around
noontime). So that fact ("lunch") helps out when it comes to the
times. But as some of the witnesses also said--they apparently broke
for lunch a little earlier than their normal time on November 22 (to
see the President).

But, overall, the "timing" issue is far from being exact. And, as I
said, the Warren Commission knew that this was the case in the first
place. They HAD to know it. They were asking a group of people to
search their memories for the time of an event (seeing Lee Harvey
Oswald) that meant absolutely NOTHING to each one of those people at
the time when it occurred.

And while Charles Givens' cigarette trip back up to the sixth floor
does, indeed, put Oswald on the sixth floor after Bill Shelley's
stated time of having last seen Oswald that day--we're still only
talking about a matter of about five minutes (in approximated time).

Givens could easily have been off in his time by 5 or 10 minutes.
Maybe more. We can never know for certain. And the same thing applies
to Eddie Piper and William Shelley and Bonnie Ray Williams and all the
rest of the TSBD witnesses.

But to think that a bunch of random estimated times supplied by the
Depository employees is enough to exonerate Lee Oswald for shooting
JFK is just not a reasonable position to take.

The bottom line is this -- We know that Lee Harvey Oswald was on an
upper floor of the TSBD at some point in time that was shortly before
12:00 noon on 11/22/63, because the four men in the elevator race
(Williams, Givens, Arce, and Lovelady) all corroborate that single
event -- Oswald being on an upper floor of the building at the time
when those four men were descending to the first floor FOR THEIR
LUNCH BREAK, WHICH WAS OBVIOUSLY PRETTY CLOSE TO NOONTIME
ON NOVEMBER 22." -- DVP; September 7, 2010

----------------------------------------------------------

Also see my "Oswald Timeline" below:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html

----------------------------------------------------------

Of course the "times" used by various individuals are only estimations but there are a number of events that can be placed in sequential order. Here is a list off the top of my head. Probably some I have missed. Why not give it a shot and see where it gets you?

The "Elevator Race" - Oswald on 5th floor (most likely, possibly 6th)
Shelley sighting of Oswald on the first floor.
Piper sighting on the first floor.
Givens sighting of Oswald during the cigarette trip
Rowland sighting with man holding rifle (12.15pm)
Williams arriving on the fifth floor for lunch.
Williams departing the 6th floor and joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor.
Dougherty going to the 5th floor.
Dougherty taking the elevator to the first floor after the shots.
Oswald returning to the 6th floor after noticing Jarman and Norman (the "alibi")
Oswald leaving the 6th floor.
Oswald entering the lunchroom for his coke.
Oswald taking position in the SN prior to shooting.
Jarman and Norman leave front of TSBD to go up.
Jarman and Norman arrive at the 5th floor windows.

While we wait for David to re-engage.......any LN please feel free to place the events in sequence.