A Better Sequence (TM DVP)

[Zeon Mason]

Zeon, I've said it before and i"ll say it again..... There were NO SHOTS fired from that SE corner window.    In fact I have strong doubt that there was any shot fired from the sixth floor.

The MC rifle found on the 6th floor, had corrosion in the barrel that should have been removed by 1 shot, let alone 3 shots, so you may be right that THAT MC rifle was not fired that day. However, since Harold Norman heard 3 shots fired in about 4 seconds or less as per his video recorded replication of the spacing, and Euins, Couch,and Jackson SAW a rifle at least for a few seconds, sticking out that SE 6th floor window, then it is entirely possible that SOME OTHER rifle was actually used AND fired from that SE window.

[Walt Cakebread]

The MC rifle found on the 6th floor, had corrosion in the barrel that should have been removed by 1 shot, let alone 3 shots, so you may be right that THAT MC rifle was not fired that day. However, since Harold Norman heard 3 shots fired in about 4 seconds or less as per his video recorded replication of the spacing, and Euins, Couch,and Jackson SAW a rifle at least for a few seconds, sticking out that SE 6th floor window, then it is entirely possible that SOME OTHER rifle was actually used AND fired from that SE window.

The MC rifle found on the 6th floor, had corrosion in the barrel that should have been removed by 1 shot, let alone 3 shots, so you may be right that THAT MC rifle was not fired that day.

That's right....AND Howard Brennan said the rifle that he saw in the hands of the man who was STANDING and AIMING it out of a window was a HIGH POWERED rifle  High powered rifle is synonymous with Hunting rifle.  And furthermore Brennan ventured a guess that the rifle might have been a 30-30 Winchester because he could see all of the barrel of the rifle.    Brennan said that he saw the man aiming the high powered rifle from a window during the shooting.....I've long suspected that Brennan's memory may have played tricks....I believe that he could have seen the man scanning the crowd through the scope on his rifle PRIOR to the shooting.

Harold Norman heard 3 shots fired in about 4 seconds or less as per his video recorded replication of the spacing, and Euins, Couch,and Jackson SAW a rifle at least for a few seconds, sticking out that SE 6th floor window, then it is entirely possible that SOME OTHER rifle was actually used AND fired from that SE window.

Harold Norman is not to be believed....He was putty in the hands of the FBI.   They fed him ideas and he invented the tale that they wanted on record.

Euins, Couch,and Jackson SAW a rifle at least for a few seconds,  Tom Dillard took a photo of the SE corner of the TSBD...( The WC  tells us that Dillard took the photo thirty seconds after the shooting.)   .The only figures visible are Jarman, Williams, and Norman. ...And they are just starting to react to the sounds of gunfire.....It doesn't take thirty seconds to react to the sounds of gunfire...  If there had been a gunman in that SE corner window he would be visible just as Harold Norman is....     There was NO gunman there!!

[Zeon Mason]

The MC rifle found on the 6th floor, had corrosion in the barrel that should have been removed by 1 shot, let alone 3 shots, so you may be right that THAT MC rifle was not fired that day.

That's right....AND Howard Brennan said the rifle that he saw in the hands of the man who was STANDING and AIMING it out of a window was a HIGH POWERED rifle  High powered rifle is synonymous with Hunting rifle.  And furthermore Brennan ventured a guess that the rifle might have been a 30-30 Winchester because he could see all of the barrel of the rifle.    Brennan said that he saw the man aiming the high powered rifle from a window during the shooting.....I've long suspected that Brennan's memory may have played tricks....I believe that he could have seen the man scanning the crowd through the scope on his rifle PRIOR to the shooting.

Harold Norman heard 3 shots fired in about 4 seconds or less as per his video recorded replication of the spacing, and Euins, Couch,and Jackson SAW a rifle at least for a few seconds, sticking out that SE 6th floor window, then it is entirely possible that SOME OTHER rifle was actually used AND fired from that SE window.

Harold Norman is not to be believed....He was putty in the hands of the FBI.   They fed him ideas and he invented the tale that they wanted on record.

Euins, Couch,and Jackson SAW a rifle at least for a few seconds,  Tom Dillard took a photo of the SE corner of the TSBD...( The WC  tells us that Dillard took the photo thirty seconds after the shooting.)   .The only figures visible are Jarman, Williams, and Norman. ...And they are just starting to react to the sounds of gunfire.....It doesn't take thirty seconds to react to the sounds of gunfire...  If there had been a gunman in that SE corner window he would be visible just as Harold Norman is....     There was NO gunman there!!

Yes, Dillard photo may even be as early as 10 seconds post shots. Jackson in the car with Couch, spotted the rifle in the SE window and Couch said he spotted it also and saw it "slowly withdrawn". The Couch stated he immediately reached for his camera, made a quick adjustment and started filming. Yet for some reason, Couch did not START at where he had JUST SEEN A RIFLE, and never filmed that SE window.. HUH???

Also, im seriously not sure that Couch film actually started at 24 sec posts shots, because Couch i do not believe would have waited 24 seconds after having seen a rifle in the window to start his camera, given his own WC testimony that even 10 seconds is a LONG time for a professional cameraman, so I dont see Couch wasting TWICE that long doing nothing.

[Walt Cakebread]

Yes, Dillard photo may even be as early as 10 seconds post shots. Jackson in the car with Couch, spotted the rifle in the SE window and Couch said he spotted it also and saw it "slowly withdrawn". The Couch stated he immediately reached for his camera, made a quick adjustment and started filming. Yet for some reason, Couch did not START at where he had JUST SEEN A RIFLE, and never filmed that SE window.. HUH???

Also, im seriously not sure that Couch film actually started at 24 sec posts shots, because Couch i do not believe would have waited 24 seconds after having seen a rifle in the window to start his camera, given his own WC testimony that even 10 seconds is a LONG time for a professional cameraman, so I dont see Couch wasting TWICE that long doing nothing.

Dillard's primary job was the covering of sporting events....like boxing matches,   Dillard had lightning like reflexes...And he was primed and ready at the time the shot was fired.....  If there had been a gunman in that sixth floor window Dillard would have captured him on film.

[Alan Ford]

Here is the way they "solved" the Rowland problem. They asked Shelley to comment and constricted him to the specific description supplied by Rowland.



The clothing description was of no value due to Shelley's memory. Also he had no recollection of either leaving the first floor! The problem with this was that he had no knowledge over the period in question......12.15-12.33pm as he was outside on the steps before the shots and then wandering down to the rail tracks afterwards...... making his statement effectively meaningless. They never showed any photos to Rowland!

To resolve their headache they simply ignored the obvious candidate at that point in time. I believe primarily because of the late exit by Williams from the SN and the implications of an "unfinished" chicken piece.

But this is just the problem, it seems to me---the WC didn't resolve their headache, in fact they made it worse by not pushing Mr Williams as Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'!

Mr Rowland's sighting of a black man at the SN window was very... tricky for the official story, yes?

Least worst option by far? Get him explained away as Mr Williams!

This would have had the very large advantage of
---------------IDing the black man as an innocent employee
---------------tying in with Mr Williams' own declared timeline of having innocently left the window as soon as Messrs Jarman & Norman arrived on five (approx. 12.25).

Problem solved!

As for the chicken bones , the WC could very easily have gotten Mr Williams to say he'd had his fill of chicken-on-the-bone-sandwich (a pretty weird-sounding victual btw, as though Mr Williams doesn't quite know what they want from him here!) and that was why he just left it there as soon as he heard his friends arriving a floor below.

This for me is the real question: Why didn't the WC actively push the line that Mr Williams was Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'?

It seems to me the answer may be: Because they knew it wasn't true and wouldn't wash (age, hair, shirt), and that Mr Rowland would take one look at a photo of Mr Williams and say, 'No, sir, definitely not him'.

This may also be the reason why they didn't show Mr Rowland the photo of the (physiognomically) much more promising candidate from the pool of Depository employees: Mr Eddie Piper. If Mr Rowland said no to him too, then only one conclusion remained: The 'elderly Negro' wasn't a Depository employee. A non-employee at the SN window at the same time as a man holding a rifle? Disaster!

So...................... they tried to character assassinate Mr Rowland instead.

And so we come back to the difficulty with the theory that Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro' was Mr Williams. This requires us to believe that

a) Mr Williams hung out at the SN window knowing that an armed man was over on the other side of the room
b) Mr Williams was allowed to leave in response to the happenstance of Messrs Norman & Jarman arriving on the floor below.

I still believe we should seriously consider the following counter-scenario:
1) The 'elderly Negro' was Mr Piper, whose own story of where he waited for and watched the motorcade from (the opaque frosted glass of the first-floor windows!) is clearly a bunch of hooey
2) Mr Piper was the one who ate & left chicken bones
3) Mr Williams ate his sandwich (no bones!) on the three-wheeler a couple of windows down and did not have a line of sight to the armed man by the southwest window-----as far as he knew, the only other person on the floor was Mr Piper, which fact was hardly cause for confusion or alarm
4) Mr Williams was allowed to leave because he was completely oblivious to the presence of an armed man or a non-employee on the sixth floor
5) The Thayer Waldo story had its origin in Eddie Piper; so too did the very early 'porter' who 'brought Oswald up to the sixth floor' story.

[Colin Crow]

But this is just the problem, it seems to me---the WC didn't resolve their headache, in fact they made it worse by not pushing Mr Williams as Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'!

Mr Rowland's sighting of a black man at the SN window was very... tricky for the official story, yes?

Least worst option by far? Get him explained away as Mr Williams!

This would have had the very large advantage of
---------------IDing the black man as an innocent employee
---------------tying in with Mr Williams' own declared timeline of having innocently left the window as soon as Messrs Jarman & Norman arrived on five (approx. 12.25).

Problem solved!

As for the chicken bones , the WC could very easily have gotten Mr Williams to say he'd had his fill of chicken-on-the-bone-sandwich (a pretty weird-sounding victual btw, as though Mr Williams doesn't quite know what they want from him here!) and that was why he just left it there as soon as he heard his friends arriving a floor below.

This for me is the real question: Why didn't the WC actively push the line that Mr Williams was Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro'?

It seems to me the answer may be: Because they knew it wasn't true and wouldn't wash (age, hair, shirt), and that Mr Rowland would take one look at a photo of Mr Williams and say, 'No, sir, definitely not him'.

This may also be the reason why they didn't show Mr Rowland the photo of the (physiognomically) much more promising candidate from the pool of Depository employees: Mr Eddie Piper. If Mr Rowland said no to him too, then only one conclusion remained: The 'elderly Negro' wasn't a Depository employee. A non-employee at the SN window at the same time as a man holding a rifle? Disaster!

So...................... they tried to character assassinate Mr Rowland instead.

And so we come back to the difficulty with the theory that Mr Rowland's 'elderly Negro' was Mr Williams. This requires us to believe that

a) Mr Williams hung out at the SN window knowing that an armed man was over on the other side of the room
b) Mr Williams was allowed to leave in response to the happenstance of Messrs Norman & Jarman arriving on the floor below.

I still believe we should seriously consider the following counter-scenario:
1) The 'elderly Negro' was Mr Piper, whose own story of where he waited for and watched the motorcade from (the opaque frosted glass of the first-floor windows!) is clearly a bunch of hooey
2) Mr Piper was the one who ate & left chicken bones
3) Mr Williams ate his sandwich (no bones!) on the three-wheeler a couple of windows down and did not have a line of sight to the armed man by the southwest window-----as far as he knew, the only other person on the floor was Mr Piper, which fact was hardly cause for confusion or alarm
4) Mr Williams was allowed to leave because he was completely oblivious to the presence of an armed man or a non-employee on the sixth floor
5) The Thayer Waldo story had its origin in Eddie Piper; so too did the very early 'porter' who 'brought Oswald up to the sixth floor' story.

I think we can all agree that the assembled evidence does not support the WCR/Bugliosi/DVP "better sequence" scenario.

I think that Ball/Belin adapted some of what was known. I think they "believed" the Studebaker position for the lunch and went with that although they must have suspected it had been moved westward at some point. The real problem for them was that from after 12.15 Oswald had to be in the SN waiting for JFK. Williams sitting behind dirty closed windows in a position unable to see a sitting LHO in the SN and leaving about 12.25 "sort of works" as a fall back. That is what they went with when Williams testified but was eventually abandoned by the WCR.

I agree Piper's story is "strange".

Anyone sitting on the trolley had a good view to the west wall.

I think the Thayer Waldo story had it's genesis with the Howard brothers and may have been designed to pressure Williams into admitting he saw Oswald just prior to the shooting. The story "evolved" and finished up as the Givens "cigarette trip".

[Alan Ford]

I think we can all agree that the assembled evidence does not support the WCR/Bugliosi/DVP "better sequence" scenario.

I think that Ball/Belin adapted some of what was known. I think they "believed" the Studebaker position for the lunch and went with that although they must have suspected it had been moved westward at some point. The real problem for them was that from after 12.15 Oswald had to be in the SN waiting for JFK. Williams sitting behind dirty closed windows in a position unable to see a sitting LHO in the SN and leaving about 12.25 "sort of works" as a fall back. That is what they went with when Williams testified but was eventually abandoned by the WCR.

Thank you for this summary, Mr Crow, it's genuinely helpful! 

I've seen the Lone Nutters argue two ways on this problem:
1. Mr Rowland was a fantasist------there was no black man at the SN window, Mr Oswald was there behind the boxes the whole time
2. Mr Rowland saw Mr Williams; the armed man back from the southwest window was Mr Oswald, who somehow (!) managed to avoid being noticed by Mr Williams... when Mr Williams left, Mr Oswald went back to Plan A (=shooting from the SN window)

Both explanations------------I know you will agree!-------------are ridiculous 

But! My argument is that we need to aim higher than just discrediting the WC garbage, i.e.
------------we need to establish not just what the WC thought needed hiding but but also what actually happened (= not necessarily the same thing!).

What's still bothering me is Mr Williams' not leaving the sixth floor suddenly because of the open presence of an armed man on the same floor, but at the time of the arrival of Messrs. Norman and Jarman a floor below. Why was he let leave? What was his understanding of what was happening?
 

I agree Piper's story is "strange".

Yes, passing strange---------and the WC knew it (hence the repeated question by the WC about whether he really hadn't gone higher than the fourth floor that day!)

Anyone sitting on the trolley had a good view to the west wall.

This is an important correction to my understanding of the situation-------thank you! 

I don't think we should rule out
-----------Mr Williams leaving the sixth floor much more quickly and going down to the fifth
-----------Messrs Jarman & Norman originally going to the sixth floor and being told by... someone the floor was off-limits----->they then join Mr Williams on five

I've always wondered why Messrs Jarman & Norman would have been 'lucky' enough to have chosen the fifth over the sixth (the more obvious vantage point, surely?)...

I think the Thayer Waldo story had it's genesis with the Howard brothers and may have been designed to pressure Williams into admitting he saw Oswald just prior to the shooting. The story "evolved" and finished up as the Givens "cigarette trip".

Possible, but the word 'janitor' in the Waldo story strongly suggests Piper IMO!

[Walt Cakebread]

Yes, Dillard photo may even be as early as 10 seconds post shots. Jackson in the car with Couch, spotted the rifle in the SE window and Couch said he spotted it also and saw it "slowly withdrawn". The Couch stated he immediately reached for his camera, made a quick adjustment and started filming. Yet for some reason, Couch did not START at where he had JUST SEEN A RIFLE, and never filmed that SE window.. HUH???

Also, im seriously not sure that Couch film actually started at 24 sec posts shots, because Couch i do not believe would have waited 24 seconds after having seen a rifle in the window to start his camera, given his own WC testimony that even 10 seconds is a LONG time for a professional cameraman, so I dont see Couch wasting TWICE that long doing nothing.

The shots covered a time period of about 8 seconds....The first shot would have alerted everybody in the vicinity.....any law enforcement, or security detail, as well as reporters,  would have been instantly alert  and looking for the source of the shot.   ( many photos taken at the time show that this statement is true)

So how can anybody actually believe that Tom Dillard was such a dimwit that he waited thirty seconds before taking a photo.     I'm here to inform you that Dillard took his photo DURING the shooting and there is NOBODY firing a rifle from that cramped cubby hole behind the SE corner window.