A Better Sequence (TM DVP)

[Walt Cakebread]

Tell me how if Rowland's claim is true it follows that Williams descends before 12.15? Give me one piece of corroborated evidence that suggests this? Tell me why Jarman and Norman claimed Williams rode up with them to the 5th floor prior to their WC testimony.

Tell me why the first officers at the SN (Mooney, Hill, Craig etc) all reported the chicken lunch there and not near the two wheeler.

You are entitled to your beliefs.......I am not claiming it was not Oswald.....but I cannot ignore what the corroborated evidence implies.

Why did Williams need to change his story on numerous occasions prior to testifying?

Why do you need to impose a sequence that is not supported by any corroboration? In fact, Rowland's testimony confirms what the other evidence tells us. Williams was in the SN until about 12.25pm. Nothing disproves the assassin fired from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD. The consolidated evidence suggests he took up position just minutes before the motorcade passed.

You are entitled to believe the assassin was Oswald......that belief does not change what the sequence of other events clearly show. Even Ball and Belin knew Williams had to be on the 6th floor at the same time as the assassin. This is clear from Williams appearance before the WC.

Nothing disproves the assassin fired from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD.

I believe that you are flat wrong on this point, Colin....  If the boxes were arranged as the crime scene photos depict them.....It would have been physically impossible  for a man to fire from that SE corner window down onto Elm street.   The boxes would have prevented a man from getting up to the window.....(and in fact the investigators claimed that LHO fired from BEHIND the Rolling Readers boxes  )   If the man couldn't get up to the window and stick the rifle out of the window then it wouldn't have been possible for him to decline the muzzle down onto Elm street.  If he was behind the Rolling readers boxes the rifle couldn't have protruded out of the window because the rifle is only 40 inches long and only about 12 inches of the rifle is forward of the place a man would hold the rifle when aiming and firing it...

I can only hope that I've made myself clear..... 

[Alan Hardaker]

The chicken lunch was in the SN

The following 9 officers who arrived at the SN prior to the arrival of Fritz all reported the components of the chicken lunch there;
Luke Mooney, Gerald Hill, AD McCurley, Eugene Boone, Harry Weatherford, Jack Faulkner, Roger Craig, Officer Brewer and Officer Haygood.

Jarman and Norman left the front of the TSBD at 12.22pm

Jarman's WC testimony...

Mr. BALL - Where did you stand?
Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

Norman's WC testimony....

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

The motorcade arrived at Main at 12.22pm. DPD Police transcripts.

Truly's testimony

Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you leave for lunch, Mr. Truly?
Mr. TRULY. As near as I know, it was between somewheres around 12:10 or shortly after, possibly 12:15.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell?
Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. All right.
Do you know approximately what time you got there, Mr. Truly? To the best of your recollection.
Mr. TRULY. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, we stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don't believe we just gradually moved out a bit.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.

Brennan arrived at his position about 12.24. He noticed only two men on the 5th floor. That was because Williams had not yet joined them.

Rowland confirmed Williams was in the SN during his WC testimony

Mr. SPECTER - At about what time was it that you observed someone hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND - Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man.
Mr. SPECTER - You have marked the double window there. Would you draw the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?
Mr. ROWLAND - It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.
Mr. SPECTER - At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; no one else on that floor.

Mr. ROWLAND - Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce I mean Main, and Ervay. I was looking back quite often, as I stated.

The motorcade passed Ervay about 12.25pm.
   
You have offered nothing to support your contention that "it follows" Williams has left the floor by 12.15pm. This is consistent with DVP's "better sequence"....better for the LN belief....but not consistent with the corroborated evidence....sorry. At least you have tried to engage which is more than can be said for the other WC supporters on the forum. The facts stand based on the evidence that was collected for the investigation.

There are numerous inconsistencies with regard to timing. Most of the witnesses are vague on detail and timing..Jarman.."untill about"..Mr.Truly.."somewhere around".."came back later on"

"Brennan arrived at his position about 12.24.He noticed two men....." That does not confirm his exact time and doesn't confirm the number of men on the second floor.

Nearly all the witnesses are a bit vague on timings etc. That is not surprising in any way. But it does mean that, in some instances, a 5 minutes or even longer, can be added, on a give or take basis, and can be applied to a fair number of witnesses statements throughout this case.

But it doesn't alter the claim that any determined cunning person, in relation to avoiding any movements by other TSBD employees, could get in place, within the time frame, to murder JFK.

[Colin Crow]

The answer to Ford’s question about returning to Dealey Plaza explains Arnold’s ever changing story. Rowland repeatedly changed and altered his story as time went on and at no time did his description of who he supposedly saw ever resemble BRW as the person he fabricated as having seen in the SN.


The CHAIRMAN - Anything further, Congressman Ford?
Representative FORD - Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back--
The CHAIRMAN - Supposing we take a few minutes recess.
Mr. ROWLAND - The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I pass that area very frequently.

Rowland reconstructed the assassination in his mind until he finally convinces himself there was another person.





Rowland fabricated numerous parts of his testimony, an additional person in the SN was just one of them.

1) Seeing the initial gunman on the 6th floor. The reporting of this person is the only reason any one was talking to him in the first place and starting his 15 minutes of fame. He tells his wife about the sighting but she does not see any one. He never looks back at the window when he hears the shots, which defies the imagination on how a person would think and react.

2) Seeing another person in the SN. This is what made the WC react and determine if he was telling the truth about seeing someone. Interesting he would go back to "seeing someone" to try and recapture his 15 minutes of fame.

3) He volunteers the information about his grades and his wife then volunteers the information about the fact he is not telling the truth.

4) Rowland went in front of the WC and gave them three different answers to the question “did you look back at the 6th floor?”  Rowland states he looks back at the window, he doesn't look back at the window, and maybe he looks back at the window. All in the same testimony.

5) Specter shows Arnold does not get the orientation of the person originally reported with the gun in the window before the assassination in the SW corner of the TSBD .

6) He represents himself as being knowledgeable about guns, but then makes up his own caliber and makes the statement it is an import and he knows the caliber "30 odd size 6" from 200 feet away. There is no such rifle as a “30 odd size 6”.  A 30-06 is not an import rifle it was the standard cartridge of the US Military through two world wars and the Korean conflict. Everything about Rowlands statement indicates he was making it up as he went.

7) He never tells anyone not even his wife about seeing an additional person in the SN despite being interviewed numerous times.

He makes claims that not only the FBI didn't record his statement properly but he doesn't like how his description of the person in the SW corner sounds so he accuses the Dallas Sheriffs Dept of changing his statement from the person standing 15 feet from the window to 3 to 5 feet back from the window .

9) Even Roger Craig then gets involved. He does not get the race or location of 2nd person correct. Not only that but in any of his previous statements he does not mention Rowland making any other statement except for their being 1 person in the SW corner.

Rowlands description of the person he supposedly seen is even more bizarre.

The facts are that Rowland sighted a man with a gun in the SW window at 12.15pm. He told his wife of this and he reported it to authorities immediately after the shots. Do you really believe that he was after 15 minutes of fame? Was he clairvoyant? What the WC did to him was shameless. He correctly reported under oath that he saw a black man in the SN until about 12.25. This is the precise time that Williams left the SN. He said he paid little attention to the man. How would he know the 6th floor was an open area and not a series of rooms from his position? We know Williams was there because his chicken lunch was found there and reported as such by 9 officers first on the scene.

The WC knew Williams was on the floor after lunch and yet only obtained photos of West and Piper, both of them were on the first floor at the relevant time......no photo of Williams.

Such hypocrisy for those who target Rowland yet believe Givens, who did not report the cigarette trip sighting of Oswald until he testified. Jarman and Norman told authorities that Williams went with them in the elevator to the 5th floor consistently until their WC changed the story. Williams changed his story repeatedly in every recounting of it.

The irony of all this is it does not preclude Oswald as the assassin per se.....yet WC supporters are unable to comprehend a scenario that has him occupy the SN just 5 minutes before the shots...why is that?

[Colin Crow]

Nothing disproves the assassin fired from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD.

I believe that you are flat wrong on this point, Colin....  If the boxes were arranged as the crime scene photos depict them.....It would have been physically impossible  for a man to fire from that SE corner window down onto Elm street.   The boxes would have prevented a man from getting up to the window.....(and in fact the investigators claimed that LHO fired from BEHIND the Rolling Readers boxes  )   If the man couldn't get up to the window and stick the rifle out of the window then it wouldn't have been possible for him to decline the muzzle down onto Elm street.  If he was behind the Rolling readers boxes the rifle couldn't have protruded out of the window because the rifle is only 40 inches long and only about 12 inches of the rifle is forward of the place a man would hold the rifle when aiming and firing it...

I can only hope that I've made myself clear.....

None of what I posted about precludes it Walt. I made no mention of what you describe about the arrangement of boxes.

[Colin Crow]

There are numerous inconsistencies with regard to timing. Most of the witnesses are vague on detail and timing..Jarman.."untill about"..Mr.Truly.."somewhere around".."came back later on"

"Brennan arrived at his position about 12.24.He noticed two men....." That does not confirm his exact time and doesn't confirm the number of men on the second floor.

Nearly all the witnesses are a bit vague on timings etc. That is not surprising in any way. But it does mean that, in some instances, a 5 minutes or even longer, can be added, on a give or take basis, and can be applied to a fair number of witnesses statements throughout this case.

But it doesn't alter the claim that any determined cunning person, in relation to avoiding any movements by other TSBD employees, could get in place, within the time frame, to murder JFK.

Only the contrary, I contend that the testimonies essentially corroborate each other with respect to the timing. There is nothing that places Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor by 12.15pm.

Brennan testified he only saw two men on the 5th floor.

None of what I posted precluded anyone occupying the SN at 12.30pm. I contend that the overwhelming evidence shows that if anyone fired from the SN they did not take up position until after 12.25pm.

[Alan Hardaker]

I think any objective person looking at the arrangement of boxes or the way they stack would conclude that they would not prevent a fit and active person from conjuring or configuring them in such a way to be able to fire a weapon thru a window.The boxes would not prevent such action. They might be a tad awkward or require a bit of dexterity or whatever but it is a bit extream to claim they could conceivably prevent a man from firing a weapon thru an open window.

[Colin Crow]

Alan why does "it follow" that Williams left the 6th floor before 12.15pm. Can you provide any testimony by anyone that would support that claim?

[Alan Hardaker]

Only the contrary, I contend that the testimonies essentially corroborate each other with respect to the timing. There is nothing that places Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor by 12.15pm.

Brennan testified he only saw two men on the 5th floor.

None of what I posted precluded anyone occupying the SN at 12.30pm. I contend that the overwhelming evidence shows that if anyone fired from the SN they did not take up position until after 12.25pm.

That's a very fair and reasonable assumption. I might add that I am not as knowledgeable as some on this forum but I continue to learn about the event from posters like yourself and Mr.Cakebread and others.

One of the many problems is the conduct of the Dallas Police. Totally inept and incompetent with regard to keeping proper record of the 10-12 hours of interrogation. Obviously he might have lied his way thru but somewhere along the line his lies would've come back and bitten him on the backside. Many will obviously conclude that the DPD had a good reason to destroy all or nearly all of any notes made of the interrogation.