A Better Sequence (TM DVP)

[Colin Crow]

Well you can take that up with Junior Jarman...He testified that he and Norman arrived on the 5th floor at 12:28....

Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.

Police transcript.....

12.22 - 1 - Escort drop back, go real slow now approaching Main.

Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

If you use 12.28 it virtually leaves no time for Williams to leave the SN and meet them downstairs before the shots. Arrival at 12.25pm works fine for me.

[Jack Nessan]

Do you participate in this thread without actually reading the posts of others?  John Iacolletti already answered your question;

I will only add BRW's own admission that he was on the 6th floor until a few minutes prior to the shots.

Now, what evidence places Oswald in the SN any time after 12.00 ?

I already know there is no evidence of BRW in the SN. I apologize for having a little fun to see your explanation, but don't worry I won't let the secret out that you to don't believe there is any evidence of BRW in the SN.

You are stating BRW was on the 6th floor.

You obviously think there was a conspiracy. Can you explain this theory as to why these detectives would even bother to move evidence to a new location when nothing is known and so early in the investigation?

[Jack Nessan]

I have no idea why you want to "muddy the waters" once again with Alyea, Jack. He was not deposed, he did not provide a motorised statement, he did not testify. He was not at the SN at the time of his discovery. He did not testify to the WC. His recollections are largely unsupported by many of those who described the scene to the WC.

Mooney did make the distinction between "cartons" of the cubby hole and "boxes" of the rifle rest. It is there in black and white? You assumed he was referring to the rest because the sentence followed on from description of the rest. The WC rightly clarified Mooney's position for the lunch sack and unfinished chicken. He was clear in that there was one piece and it was on a SN carton. Hill confirmed Mooney. Ewell remembered Hill yelling about the lunch to those below. The picture does not show him holding the lunch. So what, maybe it was taken before or after Hill held it. Maybe Ewell was mistaken about him holding it but he still remembered him yelling down from the window next to the SN. It was the police who first announced the chicken lunch in the SN......the cold hearted assassin waiting for JFK. How could the press know what was in the sack as it left the TSBD?

In any event, Williams was consistently deceptive about his movements just before the shots all the way to his WC testimony. He never admitted to it being his lunch until the Monday when asked by Day, who merely repeated the final resting position described by Studebaker.

I will agree that some police were influenced by the media/ superiors. Boyd is a good example. His description of 30-40 feet away is unsupported by anyone else at the scene at that time but reflects the final resting place of Studebaker.

Notarized and deposed? You mean like Rowland or Craig or pick your own favorite witness? They changed their story like they changed their underwear.

Alyea makes the same observation as the WC and the HSCA. Nothing more. He was questioning their statements when he himself did not see any piece of chicken in the SN. Does his film show any? It is possible he seen some on the other floors.

No Mooney interchanged the term cartons and boxes, he described the rifle rest as three more boxes. He was interchanging cartons and boxes not differentiating between the two

Mooney: ....then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle.


But BRW does finally admits to having lunch by the third window. Maybe examining what he did do should be viewed through the lense of what would you have done. Obviously it is no easy decision to place yourself on the 6th floor.

[Colin Crow]

Notarized and deposed? You mean like Rowland or Craig or pick your own favorite witness? They changed their story like they changed their underwear.

Alyea makes the same observation as the WC and the HSCA. Nothing more. He was questioning their statements when he himself did not see any piece of chicken in the SN. Does his film show any? It is possible he seen some on the other floors.

No Mooney interchanged the term cartons and boxes, he described the rifle rest as three more boxes. He was interchanging cartons and boxes not differentiating between the two

Mooney: ....then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle.


But BRW does finally admits to having lunch by the third window. Maybe examining what he did do should be viewed through the lense of what would you have done. Obviously it is no easy decision to place yourself on the 6th floor.

How many of the cops lied about the chicken lunch under oath or in a signed statement? Does Alyea's film show Fritz holding shells? Were "The shells "scattered in an area that could be covered by a bushel basket"? Did Mooney only arrive on the 6th floor until after the rifle was found? Alyea was FOS......sorry Jack but his account is full of holes and he never appeared before the WC. He's obviously a favourite of yours.

Do you believe that Mooney did not discover the SN? I am unsure which of Alyea's "contributions" to use. Was Mooney the one who discovered the SN or not?

As for Williams and his various statements, I believe if he went to watch the motorcade he would sit behind an open window. I believe if he had seen Oswald on the 6th floor before the shots, he would have admitted it, after Oswald was dead. Just as Givens had no trouble doing, eventually.

[Colin Crow]

I already know there is no evidence of BRW in the SN. I apologize for having a little fun to see your explanation, but don't worry I won't let the secret out that you to don't believe there is any evidence of BRW in the SN.

You are stating BRW was on the 6th floor.

You obviously think there was a conspiracy. Can you explain this theory as to why these detectives would even bother to move evidence to a new location when nothing is known and so early in the investigation?

Evidence moved=incompetence.......not conspiracy. Just as the "wrapper" was moved.....just look how many of them claimed that nothing was touched....methinks they protested too much.

[Martin Weidmann]

I already know there is no evidence of BRW in the SN. I apologize for having a little fun to see your explanation, but don't worry I won't let the secret out that you to don't believe there is any evidence of BRW in the SN.

You are stating BRW was on the 6th floor.

You obviously think there was a conspiracy. Can you explain this theory as to why these detectives would even bother to move evidence to a new location when nothing is known and so early in the investigation?

I already know there is no evidence of BRW in the SN.

Richard Smith's favorite word "contrarian" comes to mind. You can not "already know there is no evidence of BRW in the SN" when exactly such circumstantial evidence has just been provided to you.

You are stating BRW was on the 6th floor.

BRW himself stated he was on the 6th floor to eat his lunch, prior to joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th.

You obviously think there was a conspiracy.

Just because I do not agree with LN speculation and utter rubbish, does in no way make it obvious what I think. Why do you want to place me in a category, when in fact I am only trying to make sense of the evidence?

Can you explain this theory as to why these detectives would even bother to move evidence to a new location when nothing is known and so early in the investigation?

Oh boy, this seems to leading up to another flawed "I can't see it, so it isn't there" argument. In this case there are a great many things I can not explain, yet they happened anyway.

Instead of placing it in the evidence locker upon arrival at the police station, why did Hill carry the revolver, allegedly taken from Oswald at the Texas Theatre, around for some two hours before letting it be marked by officers, some of which were not even present at the arrest?

Why did Bentley say that when he pulled Oswald's wallet out of his pocket in the car en route to the police station, he found a driver's license and a credit card and why did he not mention the Hidell card?

Why did Studebaker fail to photograph in situ the paper bag some officers said was in the SN?

Why did Fritz pick up the shells in the SN and threw them on the floor again?

Why were boxes moved in the SN?

Perhaps I could explain all these things and more if I knew what has really been going on, but the lack of an explanation doesn't mean it didn't happen, which is what you seem to imply.

Oh yeah, btw what was that evidence again that places Oswald in the SN at any time after 12:00?

[Walt Cakebread]

Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.

Police transcript.....

12.22 - 1 - Escort drop back, go real slow now approaching Main.

Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

If you use 12.28 it virtually leaves no time for Williams to leave the SN and meet them downstairs before the shots. Arrival at 12.25pm works fine for me.

Jarman said they left the front of the TSBD at about 12:25....  And arrived on the fifth floor at about 12:28.     This makes sense....

I don't believe BRW words are solid rock to stand on.....  I suspect that BRW was chased off the 6th floor about 12:25 ( possibly a little sooner) and was already on the 5th floor when he heard the west elevator rising ( carrying Jarman and Norman)   He had been frightened by the rifle toting,  khaki clad "Deputy Sheriff" on the sixth floor so he stayed out of sight until he knew who had arrived on the fifth floor.....   

I know this is NOT what he testified ....He claimed that he heard Jarman and Norman talking on the floor beneath his feet.....But he was in the SE corner and Jarman and Norman were in the  SW corner..... before they moved to the SE corner just prior to the arrival of the motorcade. ( All thre of them moved to the SE corner together and took positions behind the windows.

[Colin Crow]

LOL.  You are equating the evidence of BRW's and Oswald's presence in the SN. Oswald's prints were found on the SN boxes and fired bullet casings from his rifle are by the window.  But nothing to see there.  And, of course, you are not suggesting a conspiracy by expressing doubt of Oswald's presence in the SN.  Instead we are led to believe that BRW, for some unknown reason, decided to eat lunch by squeezing between these boxes.  Even though he was waiting for his coworkers to join him.  And then he encountered the assassin who kindly let him go about his business trusting him not to raise an alarm or later identify him.  And then for some unknown reason BRW forever stayed silent about this.  Very credible!  Aren't you ashamed to peddle this nonsense?  That's a rhetorical question.  So no need to consult Roger Collins for his legal advice.

Richard you seem to think that Williams would not have taken position in the SN because entry to that spot was "uncomfortable". If this notion is because of the following exchange...

Mr. BALL - Did you look at your watch?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; I didn't. I should have, but I didn't look at my watch at the time to see what time it was.
Mr. BALL - Were you the only officer in that corner?
Mr. MOONEY - At that very moment I was.
Mr. BALL - You say you squeezed behind certain boxes. Can you point out for me what boxes you squeezed through?
Mr. MOONEY - IF I remember correctly, I went in there from this angle right here right through here. There could be a space. There is a space there I squeezed in between here, and that is when I got into the opening, because the minute I squeezed through there there lay the shells.
Mr. BALL - All right. Let's make a mark here. Is this the space?
Mr. MOONEY - I believe that is going to be the space; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - If I make an arrow on that, would that indicate it?



Note the dark arrow on the right side of the barricade.

Then this exchange....

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. There is another picture I have seen later that shows an opening in through here, but I didn't see that opening at that time.
Mr. BALL - That is the opening through which you squeezed? And it is an arrow shown on Exhibit 508.

It seems that Mooney did not take the easier entry point because he didn’t notice it. The easier entry/exit is the one used by SS agent Howlett in the reenactment movie.