Sniper nest shadows

[Walt Cakebread]

While searching for the CE142 topic I have compared sniper nest shadows and it seems there is something very wrong with the official WC story.
If you arrange photos by the shadow lines, here is how it looks like:
Earliest photo:


Later photos:



Afternoon photo:


The question is why there is no photo of the gun shells taken at the same time when the earliest photo was taken?
Because the gun shells were planted later than the earliest photo?

Bellow left photo is taken prior to the right one and if you compare tiny floor markings seems there are no gun shells on the earlier photo?

Look at the 4th photo ....( afternoon photo) See the hammer handle on the window sill....   Who can explain that hammer being there?

[Charles Collins]

Interesting suggestion about the boxes. Today I modeled with and without the boxes and it is the window box that blocks the sunlight on that pipe at about 2:20 pm.. So far, so good. William Allen photographed Studebaker at the rest boxes at about 2:45 pm (see the photo in POTP page 536. Time estimate by me via a shadow study). Yet, the window box seems to be un-moved from it's Dillard position. A little confusing to me.

Interesting, how did you perform the shadow study on the Allen photo?

I just tried a quick and dirty eyeball with a protractor guesstimate. I compared the angle of the shadow on the brick wall as shown on this image:




I compared that angle to a similar shadow angle on the Allen photo of Gerald Hill in the next window to the west. And I got a roughly 15-degrees difference in the two angles. Testing for that difference in shadow angles on my 3-D computer model, I came up with a time difference of about 1-hour and ten minutes. Therefore if the Gerald Hill photo is around one o’clock, then the photo of Studebaker should be around two ten.  If this turns out to be anywhere close to accurate, then it appears to me that Studebaker must have moved the window box sometime after the Allen photo of him in the window, but before the DPD photo was taken at approximately two-twenty.

[Walt Cakebread]

Go back to the first page of this thread and see the photo posted at 1:09:29.  We have a view of the sniper's nest bottom windows both left and right side (from our POV).  We can see through the right pane all the way down and see some people on the street below.  OTOH the left pane is completely blacked out.   Why is that?

We can see through the right pane all the way down and see some people on the street below.  OTOH the left pane is completely blacked out.   Why is that?

I believe that the photo was taken at night and the scene that "appears" in the right hand window was cut from a photo that was taken t about !;30 that afternoon .....The forger didn't bother to insert any thing in the left window..... He wanted the firetruck in the photo to establish that the phony photo was taken at about 1:30.

If someone was interested in finding the exact time of the street scene that was inserted into the night time photo,    there are now computer programs that will analyze the shadows and time stamp the street scene.

[Walt Cakebread]

Interesting, how did you perform the shadow study on the Allen photo?

I just tried a quick and dirty eyeball with a protractor guesstimate. I compared the angle of the shadow on the brick wall as shown on this image:




I compared that angle to a similar shadow angle on the Allen photo of Gerald Hill in the next window to the west. And I got a roughly 15-degrees difference in the two angles. Testing for that difference in shadow angles on my 3-D computer model, I came up with a time difference of about 1-hour and ten minutes. Therefore if the Gerald Hill photo is around one o’clock, then the photo of Studebaker should be around two ten.  If this turns out to be anywhere close to accurate, then it appears to me that Studebaker must have moved the window box sometime after the Allen photo of him in the window, but before the DPD photo was taken at approximately two-twenty.

You've provided a very clear photo of the shadow being cast by the corner of the cornice.  It's easy to see that that shadow  was five bricks below the sixth floor window sill and 2 1/2 bricks east of the vertical column at  time that Studebaker was taking a photo of something in the corner of the "S. N."  ( 2:30?)    At 12 30 when Tom Dillard snapped the photo of the sixth floor window that shadow was jut four bricks below the sixth floor window sill and one and a half brick east of the vertical column...  IOW that shadow had dropped one brick  ( 2  1/4 " ) and moved the length of one brick  (8  1/2" ) east between 12:30 and 2:30.   So in two hours the point of that shadow had dropped over two inches (2 1/4 " ) and moved eastward over eight inches )

The point is:.... There is a significant difference in the place where that shadow strikes the face of the building when comparing the Powell and Dillard photos ...and there should not be any difference if the two photos wee taken just 30 seconds apart.

[James Hackerott]

Interesting, how did you perform the shadow study on the Allen photo?

I just tried a quick and dirty eyeball with a protractor guesstimate. I compared the angle of the shadow on the brick wall as shown on this image:




I compared that angle to a similar shadow angle on the Allen photo of Gerald Hill in the next window to the west. And I got a roughly 15-degrees difference in the two angles. Testing for that difference in shadow angles on my 3-D computer model, I came up with a time difference of about 1-hour and ten minutes. Therefore if the Gerald Hill photo is around one o’clock, then the photo of Studebaker should be around two ten.  If this turns out to be anywhere close to accurate, then it appears to me that Studebaker must have moved the window box sometime after the Allen photo of him in the window, but before the DPD photo was taken at approximately two-twenty.

First I ran my 3D model showing me that the horizontal shadow length between the pilaster and window was unrelated to the sun's altitude within the range of a photo I took a few weeks ago at 14:43pm (azimuth 214 degrees). What I intended to do was equate that 214 degrees to 19631122 time but apparently the 14:43 stuck in my mind and was rounded to 14:45. After making the conversion as I should have the Allen photo is taken very close to the 14:20 time frame that the Studebaker photo was taken.
Thanks for checking my work.
My main question I wanted to get to was are we seeing true sun reflection on the lower portion of the pipe in Studebaker's photo, or reflection of the camera flash?

[Charles Collins]

First I ran my 3D model showing me that the horizontal shadow length between the pilaster and window was unrelated to the sun's altitude within the range of a photo I took a few weeks ago at 14:43pm (azimuth 214 degrees). What I intended to do was equate that 214 degrees to 19631122 time but apparently the 14:43 stuck in my mind and was rounded to 14:45. After making the conversion as I should have the Allen photo is taken very close to the 14:20 time frame that the Studebaker photo was taken.
Thanks for checking my work.
My main question I wanted to get to was are we seeing true sun reflection on the lower portion of the pipe in Studebaker's photo, or reflection of the camera flash?

My main question I wanted to get to was are we seeing true sun reflection on the lower portion of the pipe in Studebaker's photo, or reflection of the camera flash?


In your sim (with the window box removed) do you see the shadow on the pipe as indicated by the red arrow on Mytton’s graphic in his earlier post below? If so, I think that that shadow could be caused by the bottom member of the lower window pane. Please let us know. Thanks!

Hi Colin, thanks for the high res image and after a search for some sort of sun interaction with something on the inside I noticed the down pipe with the window frame shadow, so perhaps with the help of Charles's 3D sniper's nest model with the pipes, it should be easy enough to put in different sun angles so we can get a pretty close approximation of the time.



JohnM

[Charles Collins]

You've provided a very clear photo of the shadow being cast by the corner of the cornice.  It's easy to see that that shadow  was five bricks below the sixth floor window sill and 2 1/2 bricks east of the vertical column at  time that Studebaker was taking a photo of something in the corner of the "S. N."  ( 2:30?)    At 12 30 when Tom Dillard snapped the photo of the sixth floor window that shadow was jut four bricks below the sixth floor window sill and one and a half brick east of the vertical column...  IOW that shadow had dropped one brick  ( 2  1/4 " ) and moved the length of one brick  (8  1/2" ) east between 12:30 and 2:30.   So in two hours the point of that shadow had dropped over two inches (2 1/4 " ) and moved eastward over eight inches )

The point is:.... There is a significant difference in the place where that shadow strikes the face of the building when comparing the Powell and Dillard photos ...and there should not be any difference if the two photos wee taken just 30 seconds apart.

.



There is no difference (see below):










Both angles are approximately 24-degrees. Your problem might be that the Powell photo isn’t detailed enough to count the bricks…

[James Hackerott]

My main question I wanted to get to was are we seeing true sun reflection on the lower portion of the pipe in Studebaker's photo, or reflection of the camera flash?


In your sim (with the window box removed) do you see the shadow on the pipe as indicated by the red arrow on Mytton’s graphic in his earlier post below? If so, I think that that shadow could be caused by the bottom member of the lower window pane. Please let us know. Thanks!

The animation raises the window from 9 to 19" (approximate Dillard height). It shows the bottom of the window would send a shadow near the area indicated by the red arrow.