56 years later and still the WC apologists deny the conspiracy.

[John Iacoletti]

Fair enough - I didn’t know that.

But none of the SBT LNers who are using Croft as a posture and “jacket-bunch” reference think that a bullet hit him then.

[Jack Trojan]

Trojan's experiment is right out of Rube Goldberg.

Imagine using a protractor on a laser. And do you need positional mounts for the lasers? Do you mount the back laser on the wall or ceiling?

Instead of two lasers, you only need one. Position the laser and take a photo with no one there, and without moving the camera, take another with a person breaking the beam. Then superimpose the pictures.

But first you need to measure the laser beam angle on the photo until it gets to 17-degrees, assuming the camera is at a right angle to the laser beam. That's just the technical set-up. One has to figure out the posture requirements, which renders the whole experiment subjective.

Jerry, why aren't you getting this? The set up couldn't be easier or clearer. You just need to understand geometry a little better than you do. You can easily angle the low laser 17 degrees by using a tiny bit of trig to work out the opposite and adjacent sides of the triangle. The opposite side is where you position the high laser and you position it exactly where the red dot from the low laser strikes it. Then you aim the high laser at the low laser so that they have a coincident alignment of their beams. With this the set up is complete.

And yes, you do need 2 lasers to simulate the straight line path thru your body to identify the entrance and exit wounds. You can't do that with a single laser because you need simultaneous red dots on your body estimating the MB wounds. You certainly can't take one photo, move the laser and take another photo and expect your body to be in the exact same position as the 1st photo. Comprende?

When you find a solution that works fine, note your body position and compare that to JFK's. If you think you have a match then post the results and make me eat crow.

2 leveling lasers cost me $35 bucks, I found an old protractor from grade school (even though you can use trig instead), I used a camera tripod on a table for the high laser and it took me about 10 minutes to set the whole thing up. And after many minutes of work, I just couldn't make the MB work for me. Maybe you will have better luck. As for JFK, he must have had a grossly disfigured spine or he was bent over so far he could kiss his own ass goodbye.

We can poo-poo each other's graphics until the cows come home, and rightly so, but you can't effectively argue against a re-enactment with a surrogate based on valid geometry. EOS.

[Vincent Baxter]

You mad fools! You STILL don't get it. No wonder you're LNers, you have no sense of logic or critical thinking.

I can't show you that the MB can't be done. That would be trying to prove a negative and you would accuse me of not trying hard enough. Only you can prove it was possible and you sure as hell can't do it with drawings and graphics. You guys have to get off the pot and conduct a real live physical experiment for once in your lives.

If you are so damned sure that JFK's slouch allowed the MB to "work fine", then bloody well show it with a re-enactment.  Slouch in your chair just like JFK did (or find someone who can) and position yourself so that the high laser strikes you 2 inches right of the spine at the T1 vertebrae and the low laser strikes you in the throat at the C7 vertebrae. Then take a couple of photos showing your body position and the 2 laser dots that makes the MB work fine. You don't even have to post the photos. They are your own personal proof that the MB was possible and no one can take that away from you! 

As for Mytton, he's just barely competent enough to know the significance of doing this laser re-enactment, which is why he did it long ago hoping to make me eat crow. I'm still waiting.

Surely, it's already been proven to be possible as that's what happened on 22nd November, 1963 so there's no need for a re-enactment.

If you're saying the shot didn't come from the 6th floor of the Texas Book Depository, where are you suggesting it came from then? Or are you disregarding the majority of every witness in Dealey Plaza that day's testimony? Where did your non-existent laser experiment pin point the shot to come from?

[Bill Chapman]

Croft is in the ballpark, given that it's so close to the twofer

[Vincent Baxter]

Jerry, why aren't you getting this? The set up couldn't be easier or clearer. You just need to understand geometry a little better than you do. You can easily angle the low laser 17 degrees by using a tiny bit of trig to work out the opposite and adjacent sides of the triangle. The opposite side is where you position the high laser and you position it exactly where the red dot from the low laser strikes it. Then you aim the high laser at the low laser so that they have a coincident alignment of their beams. With this the set up is complete.

And yes, you do need 2 lasers to simulate the straight line path thru your body to identify the entrance and exit wounds. You can't do that with a single laser because you need simultaneous red dots on your body estimating the MB wounds. You certainly can't take one photo, move the laser and take another photo and expect your body to be in the exact same position as the 1st photo. Comprende?

When you find a solution that works fine, note your body position and compare that to JFK's. If you think you have a match then post the results and make me eat crow.

2 leveling lasers cost me $35 bucks, I found an old protractor from grade school (even though you can use trig instead), I used a camera tripod for the high laser and it took me about 10 minutes to set the whole thing up. And after many minutes of work, I just couldn't make the MB work for me. Maybe you will have better luck. As for JFK, he must have had a grossly disfigured spine or he was bent over so far he could kiss his own ass goodbye.

We can poo-poo each other's graphics until the cows come home, and rightly so, but you can't effectively argue against a re-enactment with a surrogate based on valid geometry. EOS.

You can't re-enact this with levelling lasers that cost you $35 bucks. You can't re-enact it by shooting real bullets through ram's heads or silicon wrapped in animal skin. The shot, the bullet, the rifle, the angle, the reaction of the live human body muscles as the bullet makes contact, the ricochet off human bone, etc. make the shot truly unique and totally impossible to re-enact.
No matter how many times you do it, no matter whether you shoot at a living person or synthetic you WILL NOT get an accurate or identical outcome so why bother to argue that it didn't happen?

[Jack Trojan]

Surely, it's already been proven to be possible as that's what happened on 22nd November, 1963 so there's no need for a re-enactment.

If you're saying the shot didn't come from the 6th floor of the Texas Book Depository, where are you suggesting it came from then? Or are you disregarding the majority of every witness in Dealey Plaza that day's testimony? Where did your non-existent laser experiment pin point the shot to come from?

"..already proven possible..because it happened". Not very scientific or logical of you to see no need for a re-enactment, and don't call me Shirley.

What the laser experiment demonstrates to you is that at the moment that JFK was struck by the MB it could not have taken a straight line path into JFK's back and out his throat if the shot came from the 6th floor of the TSBD. Otherwise, conduct the experiment yourself and prove me wrong. Don't just tell me I'm wrong because you don't understand the experiment.

Given the angle of the MB thru JFK, its only valid trajectory was from the 2nd floor of the Dal-Tex building. You asked.

[Jack Trojan]

You can't re-enact this with levelling lasers that cost you $35 bucks. You can't re-enact it by shooting real bullets through ram's heads or silicon wrapped in animal skin. The shot, the bullet, the rifle, the angle, the reaction of the live human body muscles as the bullet makes contact, the ricochet off human bone, etc. make the shot truly unique and totally impossible to re-enact.
No matter how many times you do it, no matter whether you shoot at a living person or synthetic you WILL NOT get an accurate or identical outcome so why bother to argue that it didn't happen?

I'm using your LNer criteria to test the MB, which doesn't include any ricochet off JFK's bones. Humes concluded the bullet took a straight line path thru JFK without touching bone. That's why the MB was pristine and showed up on the wrong stretcher. Forget that it smashed thru Connally's bones and according to you, ricocheted off JFK's spine.

What my experiment tells you is that it couldn't have happened the way the WC said it did. Isn't that worth a re-enactment?

[Vincent Baxter]

"..already proven possible..because it happened". Not very scientific or logical of you to see no need for a re-enactment, and don't call me Shirley.

What the laser experiment demonstrates to you is that at the moment that JFK was struck by the MB it could not have taken a straight line path into JFK's back and out his throat if the shot came from the 6th floor of the TSBD. Otherwise, conduct the experiment yourself and prove me wrong. Don't just tell me I'm wrong because you don't understand the experiment.

Given the angle of the MB thru JFK, its only valid trajectory was from the 2nd floor of the Dal-Tex building. You asked.

Why are you so convinced that nobody on here understands the concept of your experiment? I do understand it but, as stated elsewhere on this topic thread, it's impossible to re-enact a once in infinity occurrence.

Assuming that you did get President Kennedy's posture correct, your laser experiment then presumes that absolutely nothing interfered with the bullet's trajectory from the moment the shot was fired until the bullet exited the President's throat. A laser cannot measure the exact angle the bullet left the rifle, the conditions in Dealey Plaza that day, how the bullet reacted when ripping through live human muscle and flesh, etc. Even the most unbelievably minuscule slight movement would effect the outcome. The reaction of a live bullet traveling through a live human body cannot be measured by a laser and even shooting a live person through the back of the neck from the same angle wouldn't have the same outcome. It just doesn't work like that.

It already happened, that's it you can't recreate it. You can't ask someone to re-enact something like this.
Conspiracy theorists don't believe two planes flying into the World Trade Centre would cause both towers to collapse but it happened. I suppose you'd ask someone to re-enact that t prove it's possible too?