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Author Topic: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.  (Read 96539 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #560 on: March 21, 2020, 07:52:04 PM »
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There is a million WW1 Austrian soldiers that will attest to the quality and accuracy of the Carcano.

Does that include Hitler?
Got his phone number in Argentina?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 07:55:30 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #560 on: March 21, 2020, 07:52:04 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #561 on: March 21, 2020, 07:54:52 PM »
And they are all dead and buried, so you can easily make such an unverifiable and meaningless claim......

The guys they hit probably thought the Carcano was accurate.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 10:12:37 PM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #562 on: March 21, 2020, 08:19:26 PM »
From “Live by the Sword” by Gus Russo:


The Rifle’s Capability

If Oswald was up to the task, surely his cheap ($13) rifle was incapable of such a performance, other critics assert. Upon close examination, this too proves to be an inaccurate oversimplification. Originally manufactured in 1891 for the Italian Army, the bolt-action 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle Oswald owned has been widely maligned as too inferior to be used in the assassination. The truth is that this weapon is so powerful—and accurate—at the range of the Kennedy murder that it should be among the last choices for a weapon someone would want pointed at them from that distance. At the turn-of-the-twentieth-century, for example, the Mannlicher-Carcano was the weapon of choice for those competing in 1,000-yard shooting contests! It was preferred because it was one of the first to incorporate the new idea of “gain twist,” popularized by the famous 19th century American gun-barrel maker, Harry Pope. Gain twist means simply that the grooves inside of the rifle barrel were designed to make the bullet spiral as it exited, much like a well-thrown football. Just as in football, the imparted spiral, or twist, increases the stability and accuracy of the bullet. The Mannlicher has a slightly higher twist ratio (1:8”) than the current military issue M-16 (1:7”). The rifle has been further ridiculed because of its bolt-action mechanism, which obviously impedes the ability to fire off multiple shots in rapid succession—presumably necessary under the circumstances. This criticism, however, ignores the fact that the knob on the end of the bolt is not there for either aesthetic reasons or comfort. This practical addition allows the well-practiced shooter minimal hand movement when cycling from the trigger to the bolt— essentially rotating the trigger hand in one plane past the knob, with no extraneous movement. This is easier demonstrated than described. Someone skilled in the weapon’s use could recycle the weapon in under two seconds, much less than was actually needed in the Kennedy case. Oswald may very well have been so skilled. I noted earlier in the text that Marina Oswald was disturbed by Lee’s repeated dry-firing speed drills on their New Orleans front porch. Witnesses in Dallas recall the speed and accuracy with which he performed at the shooting range in the days just prior to Kennedy’s murder. Oswald’s ammunition was similarly deadly. The Mannlicher Carcano bullets are full-metal jacketed, hyper-velocity (2,700 fps—feet per second), and heavy-loaded (160 grains—twice the amount of today’s bullets of the same caliber). In addition, they are extremely long projectiles, giving them (especially in combination with the gain twist rifle barrel) increased stability. HSCA ballistics expert Larry Sturdivan testified that the Mannlicher-Carcano bullet is “one of the most stable bullets we have ever done experimentation with.” After the infamous dum-dum bullets (which caused massive fatal injuries) were outlawed at the end of World War I, this Mannlicher rifle/bullet combination became extremely popular because of its amazing penetrating abilities, which are legendary among big game hunters and ballistics experts. Outlawing the combination was in fact welcomed by military planners because even though the bullet, when striking the torso, caused fewer fatalities, it often disabled two or more soldiers—this, combined with the two men who had to carry out the wounded, showed how economical and strategic one well-placed bullet could be. Mannlicher ammunition has often been the ammunition of choice for big game hunters because it penetrates even the thick skulls of elephants. In experiments conducted by Dr. John Nichols and Dr. John Lattimer, using identical bullets (and rifle) as Oswald’s, the bullets cleanly penetrated four feet of ponderosa pine and two feet of elm wood, emerging undamaged. Furthermore, these bullets are considered “over-stabilized,” meaning that after the first penetration, they begin spinning like helicopter blades, which causes even more injury to the second person hit. Sound familiar? In the Kennedy killing, the penetrating abilities of this ammunition allowed one bullet to wound two victims, with the second victim, Governor Connally, suffering massive torso damage from the spinning, “over-stabilized” bullet. In summary, the Mannlicher Carcano, when combined with its accompanying ammunition, is clearly a weapon to be reckoned with.


"Oswald may very well have been so skilled. I noted earlier in the text that Marina Oswald was disturbed by Lee’s repeated dry-firing speed drills on their New Orleans front porch."

HSCA Report, Volume XI
Current Section: Wesley Liebeler
OSWALD"S RIFLE CAPABILITY
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=39836

On top of all the faults found in the Carcano by a team of Army sharpshooters the WC employed to test it's capabilities as JFK's murder weapon, WC counsel Wesley Liebeler pointed out, in his critique of LHO's rifle capabilities, that Marina first answered that she didn't know what Lee was doing on the porch in New Orleans but then was led to the correct answer.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=37#relPageId=33&tab=page
Warren Commission Hearings, Volume I
Current Section: Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald

~snip~

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know for sure that he didn't. But I know that we had a kind of a porch with a---screened-in porch,
and I know that sometimes evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. I don't know what he did with it. I
came there by chance once and saw him just sitting there with his rifle. I thought he is merely sitting there and resting.

Of course I didn't like these kind of little jokes.
Mr. RANKIN Can you give us an idea of how often this happened that you recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. It began to happen quite frequently after he was arrested there in connection with some demonstration and
handing out of leaflets.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that the Fair Play for Cuba demonstration?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. From what you observed about his having the rifle on the back porch, in the dark, could you tell whether or
not he was trying to practice with the telescopic lens?


217 O--64--vol.I---3

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I asked him why. But this time he was preparing to go to Cuba.
Mr. RANKIN. That was his explanation for practicing with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD Yes. He said that he would, go to Cuba. I told him I was not going with him---that I would stay here.
Mr. RANKIN. On these occasions when he was practicing with the rifle, would they be three or four times a week in the
evening
, after the Fair Play for Cuba incident?

~snip~



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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #562 on: March 21, 2020, 08:19:26 PM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #563 on: March 21, 2020, 10:16:25 PM »
From Sixth Floor Museum Oral History interview of Carl Day by Bob Porter (8/15/1996):


I put a, I think I put a little powder on the gun at the time, but I told Captain Fritz this is not the place to try to work on this gun. I took it back to the City Hall and locked it up. This must have been maybe 2 p.m., best of my memory.
.
.
.

When I was going to City Hall with Mr. Odom, with the gun, I asked him then, how badly is he hit? He said the president is dead. Well that was the first I knew that the shot had been fatal. And then of course when I got back to the building, after taking it up there - I guess it took me 30 minutes to go up there and back - Mr. Truly told me that one of his men had been arrested. And I didn‟t at that time know that Mr., Officer Tippit had been killed.
Bob:


Also this...

Bob:You came back just  to look for  more…?

Carl: Down here  to finish up what we  were  doing  here  -  we  had an  awful lot  of work here.  Drawings, and  photos  and so  forth;  the whole area  on the  sixth floor, not just that one area  which we  were  working  in.  When  I  came back from the  City  Hall, after  I‟d placed the  gun up there,  I  came up on the  second floor,  and  I  run into Mr. Truly, who was the  manager of  this School Book Depository.   It so happened that  he  and  I  went to the  same  church.   I  didn‟t really  know him, but  he  and  I  both went out  there  to my church.   And he  started  walking  back with me, and he  told me that an officer came in after the  shooting, and he  started up the  stairs, they  walked, on the  second floor, they walked back to the  back  wall, and then west to the  northeast corner where  the  stairs and the elevator were.  Well, on that floor there  was a little  lunchroom.  Mr. Truly  said that as he  and the officer  came up to that lunchroom, Oswald was standing  there  by  the Coke machine or  some  vending  machine.  The  officer drew his  gun, and he  asked Mr. Truly  if he  knew the  man,  and Mr. Truly  told him,  yes, he  worked there.  They  just  let him  go on, walk on out  the building.   Apparently  he  had just  come down from the  sixth floor after the shooting  and when they  approached him, he  just acted like he  was  getting  something out of the  machine there.

Day came back and talks of going up to the second floor and Talking with Truly. No mention of noticing the bag on its way out and getting samples from the wrapping table then as some have suggested. Did Day come back and go up the front stairs and then across to the NW corner stairway as he and Sudebaker had done when first entering?

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #564 on: March 21, 2020, 10:24:10 PM »
"Oswald may very well have been so skilled. I noted earlier in the text that Marina Oswald was disturbed by Lee’s repeated dry-firing speed drills on their New Orleans front porch."

HSCA Report, Volume XI
Current Section: Wesley Liebeler
OSWALD"S RIFLE CAPABILITY
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=39836

On top of all the faults found in the Carcano by a team of Army sharpshooters the WC employed to test it's capabilities as JFK's murder weapon, WC counsel Wesley Liebeler pointed out, in his critique of LHO's rifle capabilities, that Marina first answered that she didn't know what Lee was doing on the porch in New Orleans but then was led to the correct answer.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=37#relPageId=33&tab=page
Warren Commission Hearings, Volume I
Current Section: Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald

~snip~

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know for sure that he didn't. But I know that we had a kind of a porch with a---screened-in porch,
and I know that sometimes evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. I don't know what he did with it. I
came there by chance once and saw him just sitting there with his rifle. I thought he is merely sitting there and resting.

Of course I didn't like these kind of little jokes.
Mr. RANKIN Can you give us an idea of how often this happened that you recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. It began to happen quite frequently after he was arrested there in connection with some demonstration and
handing out of leaflets.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that the Fair Play for Cuba demonstration?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. From what you observed about his having the rifle on the back porch, in the dark, could you tell whether or
not he was trying to practice with the telescopic lens?


217 O--64--vol.I---3

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I asked him why. But this time he was preparing to go to Cuba.
Mr. RANKIN. That was his explanation for practicing with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD Yes. He said that he would, go to Cuba. I told him I was not going with him---that I would stay here.
Mr. RANKIN. On these occasions when he was practicing with the rifle, would they be three or four times a week in the
evening
, after the Fair Play for Cuba incident?

~snip~

Cool that you believe Marina. Sometimes.
And somebody said that Marina heard clicking sounds from the porch

I suggested this:


Testers did not have but a few moments to practice the bolt action. Working the bolt is where the rubber meets the road. The guy in the window had just enough practice, apparently. Just as apparent, the testers did not. You can test until doomsday, but the guy in the window showed how to knock off the guy in the limo. He 'just did it' instead of trying to match a predetermined time sequence.

Pssst... if anyone ever points a Carcano at you, I suggest you duck.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 09:40:36 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #564 on: March 21, 2020, 10:24:10 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #565 on: March 21, 2020, 11:59:57 PM »
Also this...

Bob:You came back just  to look for  more…?

Carl: Down here  to finish up what we  were  doing  here  -  we  had an  awful lot  of work here.  Drawings, and  photos  and so  forth;  the whole area  on the  sixth floor, not just that one area  which we  were  working  in.  When  I  came back from the  City  Hall, after  I‟d placed the  gun up there,  I  came up on the  second floor,  and  I  run into Mr. Truly, who was the  manager of  this School Book Depository.   It so happened that  he  and  I  went to the  same  church.   I  didn‟t really  know him, but  he  and  I  both went out  there  to my church.   And he  started  walking  back with me, and he  told me that an officer came in after the  shooting, and he  started up the  stairs, they  walked, on the  second floor, they walked back to the  back  wall, and then west to the  northeast corner where  the  stairs and the elevator were.  Well, on that floor there  was a little  lunchroom.  Mr. Truly  said that as he  and the officer  came up to that lunchroom, Oswald was standing  there  by  the Coke machine or  some  vending  machine.  The  officer drew his  gun, and he  asked Mr. Truly  if he  knew the  man,  and Mr. Truly  told him,  yes, he  worked there.  They  just  let him  go on, walk on out  the building.   Apparently  he  had just  come down from the  sixth floor after the shooting  and when they  approached him, he  just acted like he  was  getting  something out of the  machine there.

Day came back and talks of going up to the second floor and Talking with Truly. No mention of noticing the bag on its way out and getting samples from the wrapping table then as some have suggested. Did Day come back and go up the front stairs and then across to the NW corner stairway as he and Sudebaker had done when first entering?


Did Day come back and go up the front stairs and then across to the NW corner stairway as he and Sudebaker had done when first entering?

In his signed memo dated 1/8/64 (CE 3145) Day states that he returned to the TSBD about 2:45. Plenty of time to go up to the sixth floor and return back down to the shipping area before the bag was taken out at about 3:00. If that is what happened.

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #566 on: March 22, 2020, 01:21:26 AM »

Did Day come back and go up the front stairs and then across to the NW corner stairway as he and Sudebaker had done when first entering?

In his signed memo dated 1/8/64 (CE 3145) Day states that he returned to the TSBD about 2:45. Plenty of time to go up to the sixth floor and return back down to the shipping area before the bag was taken out at about 3:00. If that is what happened.

Point is when did Day notice the wrapping area? When did he take the bag to the table to compare the materials and get samples? Studebaker mentions nothing of this in his testimony. Day says he left the bag with Hicks and Studebaker to bring in. Hicks did not arrive until after 3pm. Why was key evidence removed by Montgomery and Johnson? Who authorised them to do that that and why? Studebaker did not leave the TSBD until about 1am. Where is the chain of possession of the paper samples and where is the documentation for their entry into evidence?

Offline Pat Speer

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #567 on: March 22, 2020, 08:25:16 AM »

Did Day come back and go up the front stairs and then across to the NW corner stairway as he and Sudebaker had done when first entering?

In his signed memo dated 1/8/64 (CE 3145) Day states that he returned to the TSBD about 2:45. Plenty of time to go up to the sixth floor and return back down to the shipping area before the bag was taken out at about 3:00. If that is what happened.

Funny thing about that 1/8/64 letter from Day--he never mentions finding the bag. Hmmm... By then, the FBI had dragged out of Day and Fritz etc that Frazier had been shown the bag and had stated as fact that it was not the bag he saw in Oswald's possession. It seems that scared the DPD out of using it as evidence against Oswald, which would explain why they never got their stories straight. As far as they were concerned, it was like that stinking map--non-evidence. But the FBI and WC wouldn't let it go, and kept asking them about it, which resulted in the incredible mess we have today--with multiple men claiming they discovered the bag, or saw it discovered, and none of them telling a consistent or credible story about when and where it was found. 

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Re: Oswald's sack in the Sniper's nest.
« Reply #567 on: March 22, 2020, 08:25:16 AM »