Shells, rifle, SN... Who?

[Mitch Todd]

Mitch, isn't this response carrying it a bit further than necessary?    Don't you agree that Weitzman simply made a WAG at the manufacturer of the rifle as he caught glimpse of it as Day and Fritz examined the rifle?  Weitzman didn't have the opportunity to closely examine the rifle, so he wouldn't have known if the crest was ground off.   Fritz simply asked if anybody recognized the make of rifle....and Weitzman ventured a WAG that it "looked like a 7.65 Mauser".....

That's basically what I've been saying all along. Though I don't think it was a WAG. I think Weitzman knew enough about the Agentine Mausers to know about the protruding magazine, but did [not] know enough to realize that other rifles had them.

[Walt Cakebread]

That's basically what I've been saying all along. Though I don't think it was a WAG. I think Weitzman knew enough about the Agentine Mausers to know about the protruding magazine, but did know enough to realize that other rifles had them.

I concur 100 %.....However, can you explain the FBI report that was written by A1bert Sawyer? I realize this requires speculation but that report has me baffled....What the hell was going on??

[Mitch Todd]

I agree, there is no evidence in the affidavits, crime reports or testimony of the ground off Argentine national crest or the  receiver markings noting the model number and manufacturing location indicating a '91 Argentine Mauser.

The WC, LN idea is that Boone and Weitzman misidentified the TSBD Carcano as a 7.65 mauser. Specifically one that resembles the Carcano enough to fool several veteran LE officers. A Argentine Model 1891 7.65 Mauser is the suspect as it looks similar to the Carcano examined by LT. Day on the 6th floor TSBD on 11/22/63.

Herein lies the problem. Anyone familiar with that model Mauser would also be familiar with 2 of it's most prominent identifying characteristics: The ground off Argentine national crest and the receiver markings.




Since, as you noted in your post, these were never mentioned there are a couple possibilities.

1.) A 7.65 mauser was found by Boone and Weitzman, just not a model '91 Argentine, and it quickly disappeared.
2.) There is another model 7.65 mauser that resembles the Carcano enough to fool those officers.

IMO the

1st option is the most likely.

To begin with, the rifle only fooled one law enforcement officer: Seymore Weitzman. Weitzman was a Deputy Constable, a position who main functions are to serve process and provide JoPs with bailiffs. Even then, he didn't join until 1961. Nothing implies Weitzman possessed any particularly useful knowledge regarding identifying firearms. For that matter Boone had only been a Deputy for about a year, and supposedly holds the record as the youngest deputy that Decker ever hired. I doubt he was a firearms expert, either. Those are your "veteran law enforcement officers."

The rest is just a non-sequitur.

[Mitch Todd]

I concur 100 %.....However, can you explain the FBI report that was written by A1bert Sawyer? I realize this requires speculation but that report has me baffled....What the hell was going on??

Which part of the Sawyer report? I went over the description of the rifle in that memo. You mean the part about Fritz taking the rifle from Weitzman?

[Gary Craig]

To begin with, the rifle only fooled one law enforcement officer: Seymore Weitzman. Weitzman was a Deputy Constable, a position who main functions are to serve process and provide JoPs with bailiffs. Even then, he didn't join until 1961. Nothing implies Weitzman possessed any particularly useful knowledge regarding identifying firearms. For that matter Boone had only been a Deputy for about a year, and supposedly holds the record as the youngest deputy that Decker ever hired. I doubt he was a firearms expert, either. Those are your "veteran law enforcement officers."

The rest is just a non-sequitur.

"To begin with, the rifle only fooled one law enforcement officer:"

I guess I'm not explaining myself clear enough.
The TSBD Carcano wasn't mistaken for a model 1891 Argentine 7.65 mauser by any of the LE officers present.
That Mauser's build quality and distintive markings compared to the Carcano make the idea one was mistaken for the other improbable.

"Nothing implies Weitzman possessed any particularly useful knowledge regarding identifying firearms"

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9926&relPageId=34&search=lane_and%20weisberg%20and%20mauser
"In addition to Weitzman having a familiarity of rifles because of his sporting good operation and his own interest,
Weitzman was an engineer, a graduate engineer."

"Boone had only been a Deputy for about a year, and supposedly holds the record as the youngest deputy that Decker ever hired.
I doubt he was a firearms expert"

Boone didn't need to be a firearms expert to tell the difference between a Carcano and a Argentine Mauser. This is Dallas, Texas, a gun culture, and as pointed out by Officer Marion Baker in his WC testimony.

SENATOR COOPER - Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one you used?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type.

SENATOR COOPER - Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have belonged to Lee Oswald?

Mr. BAKER - I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper.

SENATOR COOPER - Do you know what kind of rifle it is?

Mr. BAKER - Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of the boys down there at the police

department have had dealings with foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them sell them,

and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer rifles.

[Walt Cakebread]

"To begin with, the rifle only fooled one law enforcement officer:"

I guess I'm not explaining myself clear enough.
The TSBD Carcano wasn't mistaken for a model 1891 Argentine 7.65 mauser by any of the LE officers present.
That Mauser's build quality and distintive markings compared to the Carcano make the idea one was mistaken for the other improbable.

"Nothing implies Weitzman possessed any particularly useful knowledge regarding identifying firearms"

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9926&relPageId=34&search=lane_and%20weisberg%20and%20mauser
"In addition to Weitzman having a familiarity of rifles because of his sporting good operation and his own interest,
Weitzman was an engineer, a graduate engineer."

"Boone had only been a Deputy for about a year, and supposedly holds the record as the youngest deputy that Decker ever hired.
I doubt he was a firearms expert"

Boone didn't need to be a firearms expert to tell the difference between a Carcano and a Argentine Mauser. This is Dallas, Texas, a gun culture, and as pointed out by Officer Marion Baker in his WC testimony.

SENATOR COOPER - Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one you used?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type.

SENATOR COOPER - Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have belonged to Lee Oswald?

Mr. BAKER - I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper.

SENATOR COOPER - Do you know what kind of rifle it is?

Mr. BAKER - Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of the boys down there at the police

department have had dealings with foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them sell them,

and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer rifles.

Mr. WEITZMAN - That is correct, Boone and I, and as he was looking over the rear section of the building, I would say the northwest corner, I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking on the top side and we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said, "There it is" and he started hollering, "We got it." It was covered with boxes. It was well protected as far as the naked eye because I would venture to say eight or nine of us stumbled over that gun a couple times before we thoroughly searched the building.
Mr. BALL - Did you touch it?
Mr. WEITZMAN - No, sir; we made a man-tight barricade until the crime lab came up and removed the gun itself.
Mr. BALL - The crime lab from the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Lieutenant Day and Captain Fritz?

Mr. WEITZMAN - After that, I returned to my office and I was called down to the city that afternoon later to make a statement on what I had seen.

Mr. WEITZMAN - Well, I would be looking over--Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under the flat. We were looking over everything. I was behind this section of books. I believe there were more books in here [indicating].



Mr. WEITZMAN - Down on the floor.
Mr. BALL - Shows the location of the gun on the floor?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes.

I guess I'm not explaining myself clear enough.
The TSBD Carcano wasn't mistaken for a model 1891 Argentine 7.65 mauser by any of the LE officers present.

HUH??? How can you say that when Weitzman testified that he referred to the Carcano as a 7.65 Mauser?

Mr. BALL - In the statement that you made to the Dallas Police Department that afternoon, you referred to the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser bolt action?
Mr. WEITZMAN - In a glance, that's what it looked like.
Mr. BALL - That's what it looked like did you say that or someone else say that?
Mr. WEITZMAN - No; I said that. I thought it was one.

[Walt Cakebread]

Which part of the Sawyer report? I went over the description of the rifle in that memo. You mean the part about Fritz taking the rifle from Weitzman?

I just noticed this in Weitzman's testimony......

Mr. WEITZMAN - After that, I returned to my office and I was called down to the city that afternoon later to make a statement on what I had seen.

This explains when Weitzman talked to Detective "Charlie" Brown, and FBI agent A1bert sawyer........He was called to the Police department later that afternoon after he  had left the TSBD.


P.S.    There's no doubt in my mind that someone presented a 7.65 mauser at that interview and asked Weitzman to describe it.  And I'll bet that Mauser was presented to Weitzman as the rifle( the carcano) that he had caught a glimpse of on the sixth floor earlier that afternoon.

[John Iacoletti]

This is the truth.....However.... Weitzman may have suggested that it looked like a 7.65 Mauser before Fritz made that statement and Fritz heard it.

Walt, how do you discern between your truth tellers and your “damn liars”?