Shells, rifle, SN... Who?

[Mitch Todd]

This seems really contrived to me. He described details that he didn’t actually see but invented them to match his assumption that he saw a Mauser? Why would anyone do that? He’s supposed to be describing what he saw.

It's simple syllogistic logic. If you know that Mausers hold 5 rounds, and you think that a rifle you see is a Mauser, then you are liable to that the "Mauser" hold five rounds.

And who says that Weitzman’s Mauser fired a shot?

Who said that Weitzman or Boone or anyone else found a second rifle, separate from the Carcano seen in the Alyea film?

[Mitch Todd]

"you'll notice the tool marks where some took a grinder to the top of the receivers on the top two rifles (it's easier to see on the second photo).  That's because the Argentine government required that their military rifles have the national crest removed from their surplus firearms before they could sold for export."

Yes, you're correct. Argentina started grinding their national crest off exported rifles in the 1930's.

https://gunsinthenews.com/1891-argentine-mauser-history/

"Collectors in the U.S., though, often find the national crest ground off of Argentine 1891 Mausers. This was done in the aftermath of the Chaco War of 1935, which pitted Bolivia and Paraguay against one another in a vicious albeit brief struggle for control of South America’s resource-rich Chaco Boreal. Argentina provided Paraguay with a large number of Model 1891 Mausers during the conflict in a move that jeopardized its relationship with Bolivia. The presence of unground national crests made it impossible to deny Argentina’s direct support for Paraguay, so after the war Argentina instituted a law requiring the removal of the national crest from any gun leaving the country. Although the government in Buenos Aires later dropped this requirement, by then most of the Argentine 1891 Mausers had been ground, and this accounts for why it is rare to find one with the crest intact."

The "7.65 Mauser" was added decades after the rifles' manufacture. The Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed in reaction to RFK's assassination.  One of it's provisions was that imported firearms were required to have the caliber engraved on the weapon after 1968.

That doesn't mean 7.65 wasn't added to any exported rifles before 1968. Seems like it would be a natural to add it to the place where the national crest was was ground off the rifles.

 Also, since the majority of the Argentine '91 7.65 rifles imported into the US had the national crest ground off, and Boone and Weitzman were, according to you and most WC apologists, making a guess after a quick glance, could you show me the area on the TSBD Carcano where the crest was ground off that would have given them that impression?

Who said anything about a crest, ground off or not, on the rifle found in the TSBD? Do you even know what you're arguing, or why you're arguing it?

[Mitch Todd]

Maybe it actually happened.  You can't expect that the small amount of remaining Alyea footage captured everything that happened.

What evidence is there for a second rifle being discovered?

[Jack Trojan]

What evidence is there for a second rifle being discovered?

Doesn't Weitzman's signed affidavit that he examined a Mauser on the 22nd give you the slightest bit of pause? Otherwise, why would you think he knew Mausers were 7.65 caliber and a Mauser held 5 rounds? He admitted that he was no expert. Do you really think that Weitzman was describing a rifle from another day or the MC?

If Weitzman was telling the truth (before he thought better of it) then there were 2 rifles found on the 22nd. In which case, the Mauser was not captured on film because Fritz pulled a switcheroo before Alyea started filming. Fritz seemed to be in control of what got documented and how to stage the crime scene before any film was shot.  For example, Fritz tampered with the crime scene by picking up the 3 hulls with his bare hands and put them in his pocket, then later staged an in situ photograph of the hulls in a more scattered (believable) arrangement by tossing them onto the floor so a rookie cop could take a photo of them. If he could do that, then what's the big deal about pulling a switcheroo with the rifle, if he had to because a DPD bumpkin stumbled onto the Mauser by mistake?

Otherwise, you have to believe the testimony of the conspirators that the 1st rifle found was the MC. Why you and Walt believe Fritz and Day is beyond me. Screw the film. Fritz staged that too. Alyea might have been oblivious to it all, but I doubt he would have been allowed to be there if Fritz didn't  have control over the narrative his film portrayed.

But since you are a LNer, you think the MC is THE 1 and only rifle, which Oswald used to kill the POTUS with a magic bullet and a wonky scope from the 6th floor of the TSBD. And definitely NOT with a Mauser! Walt thinks the whole Mauser story is insane BS but his crazy conspiracy theory is AOK. 

[Gary Craig]

Who said anything about a crest, ground off or not, on the rifle found in the TSBD? Do you even know what you're arguing, or why you're arguing it?

I'm not arguing anything with you. Just pointing out some facts and asking questions.

The majority of model '91 Argentine 7.65 Mausers imported into the US had the Argentine national crest ground off.

https://gunsinthenews.com/1891-argentine-mauser-history/

"Collectors in the U.S., though, often find the national crest ground off of Argentine 1891 Mausers. This was done in the aftermath of the Chaco War of 1935, which pitted Bolivia and Paraguay against one another in a vicious albeit brief struggle for control of South America’s resource-rich Chaco Boreal. Argentina provided Paraguay with a large number of Model 1891 Mausers during the conflict in a move that jeopardized its relationship with Bolivia. The presence of unground national crests made it impossible to deny Argentina’s direct support for Paraguay, so after the war Argentina instituted a law requiring the removal of the national crest from any gun leaving the country. Although the government in Buenos Aires later dropped this requirement, by then most of the Argentine 1891 Mausers had been ground, and this accounts for why it is rare to find one with the crest intact."

Pertinent to the conversation because of the alleged Boone and Weitzman misidentification of a rifle in the TSBD. Apparently a '91 Argentine Mauser because it's the Mauser that most resembles the TSBD Carcano. My question: Is there something on the TSBD Carcano  that would have given them the impression it had a ground off Argentine national crest?


'91 Argentine Mauser with crest ground off and caliber stamped on.

[Walt Cakebread]

It's simple syllogistic logic. If you know that Mausers hold 5 rounds, and you think that a rifle you see is a Mauser, then you are liable to that the "Mauser" hold five rounds.
Who said that Weitzman or Boone or anyone else found a second rifle, separate from the Carcano seen in the Alyea film?

It's simple syllogistic logic. If you know that Mausers hold 5 rounds, and you think that a rifle you see is a Mauser, then you are liable to that the "Mauser" hold five rounds.

That's right....Weitzman apparently was familiar with the Argentine Mauser, so he knew that it held five rounds.....This is one of the things that leads me to believe that Weitzman actually had his hands on a 7.65 Mauser.  (And that most definitely was NOT on the sixth floor that afternoon. )

Who said that Weitzman or Boone or anyone else found a second rifle, separate from the Carcano seen in the Alyea film?

Roger Craig made that claim..... Not that I believe that...I'm just tellin you that Roger Craig said that. 

Please, Let's not let this degenerate into petty arguments about the features of Argentine Mausers....   Let's try to come up a reasonable explanation for the FBI report of A1bert Sawyer....and Weitzman's very specific description of a 7.65 mauser.

[John Iacoletti]

What evidence is there for a second rifle being discovered?

Three sheriff’s deputies saying they saw a Mauser.

[Mitch Todd]

Doesn't Weitzman's signed affidavit that he examined a Mauser on the 22nd give you the slightest bit of pause? Otherwise, why would you think he knew Mausers were 7.65 caliber and a Mauser held 5 rounds? He admitted that he was no expert. Do you really think that Weitzman was describing a rifle from another day or the MC?

If I had a dollar for single every time I saw someone say that X was a Y, but it turned out to be something else, I'd be a filthy rich man. Weitzman was a guy whose expertise with rifles originates from his yearlong stint winding down a chain of discount stores. That's it. On the other hand, we have the Alyea film of Day removing the rifle and the news photos of it being taken from the TSBD.

If Weitzman was telling the truth (before he thought better of it) then there were 2 rifles found on the 22nd. In which case, the Mauser was not captured on film because Fritz pulled a switcheroo before Alyea started filming. Fritz seemed to be in control of what got documented and how to stage the crime scene before any film was shot.  For example, Fritz tampered with the crime scene by picking up the 3 hulls with his bare hands and put them in his pocket, then later staged an in situ photograph of the hulls in a more scattered (believable) arrangement by tossing them onto the floor so a rookie cop could take a photo of them. If he could do that, then what's the big deal about pulling a switcheroo with the rifle, if he had to because a DPD bumpkin stumbled onto the Mauser by mistake?

Otherwise, you have to believe the testimony of the conspirators that the 1st rifle found was the MC. Why you and Walt believe Fritz and Day is beyond me. Screw the film. Fritz staged that too. Alyea might have been oblivious to it all, but I doubt he would have been allowed to be there if Fritz didn't  have control over the narrative his film portrayed.

But since you are a LNer, you think the MC is THE 1 and only rifle, which Oswald used to kill the POTUS with a magic bullet and a wonky scope from the 6th floor of the TSBD. And definitely NOT with a Mauser! Walt thinks the whole Mauser story is insane BS but his crazy conspiracy theory is AOK. 

Of what you wrote, the parts that aren't baseless assertions are just circular logic. "I'm claiming there was a conspiracy, and if there's any evidence against what I'm claiming then it's because The Conspiracy made it that way."